Learning through Translating: ブラックジャックによろしく episode 4: 夏雲

Does anyone know if there is an app or dictionary software which uses the Kenkyusha’s New English Japanese-English Dictionary database? I was thinking of buying the dictionary… but it’s 400$ so that’s too much for my budget.

Wikipedia says it exists on IOS:

6th edition[6]

  • Windows/Mac OS CD-ROM version (Kenkyusha’s New English Japanese-English Dictionary/研究社 新英和大辞典第6版) (JAN 4948022518003)

I think this is it:

https://www.logovista.co.jp/LVERP/shop/ItemDetail?contents_code=LVDKQ10010

…but I’d rather not buy a cd-rim (if only because my pc doesn’t have a CD-ROM drive and I don’t like that medium).

Ooohhh! I found the app… but…it’s 159.99$. If I were rich I’d buy it in a heartbeat. Of course, it’s available for free online so it’s not a “must buy” but since it’s the reference it just makes me want to buy it more.

Edit: I’ve updated the first message with new strips. Will start a new thread tomorrow as it’ll be a week and we’re getting close to 200 replies. Or should we finish the episode first?

66.

先生はあの患者さん助けたくないんですか…?!

:speech_balloon: “Doctor, don’t you want to help that patient?!”

Going on my instinct here, no analysis.


67.

輸血『と』腹膜透析『を』再開します

:speech_balloon: “Resume the blood transfusion and the peritoneum dialysis”


68.

あの患者『の』担当医…僕です…

:speech_balloon: “I’m the doctor in charge of that patient”


Participation

I just finished counting the participations for this thread


This is to take with a grain of salt since each “claim” is not created equal. It’d be more accurate to count how many characters per claim but I’m not willing to do that yet.

69.

7日7月

:speech_balloon: “7th of July”

輸血『と』腹膜透析『を』再開…

:speech_balloon: “Mister Kaneko’s blood transfusion and peritoneal dialysis resume”


70. ホラ先生ちゃんとそっち『の』シーツもって

☆シーツ a loanword of course, from “sheets” in English. I googled the word on Weblio for the etymology but couldn’t find anything. This is likely due to using a bilingual dictionary, which is more focused on the two languages.

Are you sure it isn’t 7月7日 ? :slight_smile:

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I’m checking out the dictionaries we’ve talked about, Kotobank, Goo and Sanseido.

☆Why is it called “goo”? It’s a weird name. I keep thinking about it and wondering where that comes from. Even the romaji “goo” is unusual.

Re: # 70:

ホラ先生ちゃんとそっち『の』シーツもって

☆New Vocabulary☆
ホラ: look out! (I think it’s generally written in katakana);
ちゃんと: adv. diligently;
そっち: that way;
もって: ⓐ with, by, by means of

:thought_balloon: Here, is she saying:
ちゃんと or ちゃん+と

:speech_balloon: “Look out sensei, you do the sheets this way”
Maybe?


:speaking_head: Discussion

I was thinking about something yesterday.

After episode 4 is done, I wanted to suggest changing our reading material entirely.

For me, the current reading is still challenging but it might be very easy for others.

Also, I was thinking of switching towards newspaper articles but not the simplified NHK ones necessarily. Proper native newspapers. From what I understand it’s the hardest thing to read at least kanji wise.

The advantage of using newspaper articles is that it’s short term time wise. This means that we can constantly have newcomers to participate since the reason of “I wasn’t there at the beginning so I’ll never participate” doesn’t apply.

Preference wise, I personally prefer reading non-fiction to fiction. Reading newspaper articles would allow us to learn about the language as well as learn about the world, essentially killing two birds with one stone.

At the moment I’m mostly the one claiming sentences anyway, I’d say about 2/3 of them so it’s more of an individual process than anything else (regarding the actual translations). The help from @Jonapedia and @ayamedori is precious and essential but it’d like their input to be shared with more people, it’s so important.

It’s not like we were going to translate all of the manga anyway. We’re starting to get sentences which require no translation as our level is improving. Normally, those sentences could be picked up by beginners but the new participation is non-existent with our current format so it doesn’t apply.

The disadvantages are as following from my point of view:

Using text instead of images means we could end up over relying on tool assisted translation. The temptation would be there to copy/paste a lot. As @YanagiPablo said, I too enjoy typing the text and found it allows more language involvement than just copy/pasting.

Could we last a week on a newspaper article? I think it’s possible but we’d have to be wary to pace ourselves less we end up being reported again for creating too many threads.

Let me know your thoughts.


A better Compromise?

I thought the best of both worlds could be a passage from a book.

71. まったくお医者さんってなんで看護婦まかせっきりなんだから!

:speech_balloon: “Truly, why don’t doctors just leave everything to nurses!”

(Not sure)


☆ New Vocabulary ☆

まったく: “really”, “truly”;
看護婦【かんごふ】female nurse;
なんで: why, what for;
まかせっきり: leave everything to someone else;


Grammar

って: I think this is the は function ayamadori was talking about that one time;


72. 治療『を』再開して間もくない

☆ New Vocabulary ☆

治療【ちりょう】medical treatment, cure;


An Exciting Exploration of a Japanese Dictionary

間【あいだ】span, period of time;
I actually knew this one but I wanted to use a JP-JP dictionary for the first time to get out of my comfort zone.

I decided on goo this time around. Let’s read what I found out.


The very first line I get is:

間で始まる言葉

間 is the particle I looked up followed by the grammatical particle で.
始まる言葉 means “beginning word”.
:thought_balloon: Here they might mean “main entry” by this expression since the first definition of a dictionary is usually the main one.

国語辞書 238
Is what I get next.
国語辞書【こくごじしょ】Japanese-language dictionary;
:thought_balloon: This could be because multi-lingual dictionaries are also supported by Goo. 238 probably refers to ‘entries’.

Here’s what I have next:

あい is the word in kana while 合い is the kanji representation.

合い can mean:

noun, abbreviation
ⓐ between-season wear, spring and autumn clothing, spring and fall clothing (also written as 間, see also: 合服)
suffix
ⓑ together
ⓒ condition, situation, state
ⓓ -ish

Here I think it refers to “a condition”. It’s telling us the main category of the word.

:cold_sweat: I don’t know what とも refers to here. 書く means to write. Maybe the kanji working of 間? No idea.

:cold_sweat: 合い着【あいぎ】means “between season gear”. Maybe it’s an example of how 間 can be used? No idea. 合い服 is a synonym of 合い着.

:cold_sweat: 略 means abbreviation. So 合い服 is an abbreviation of 合い着? How so? Don’t know.

:cold_sweat: 2名詞 means two nouns, so maybe the two entries we just saw with 合い服 and 合い着? Don’t know.

下に means “down”…

付く means to be attached…

接尾語 means a suffix…

用いる means to use…

So if someone could give me through this I’d be very happy because I’m very confused.

News articles are quite a step up from manga, but have the advantage that there are a lot of repetitive structures and no colloquial language or slang. I think it’d be an interesting change, and we could easily last a week on one article - especially news sites that don’t necessarily focus on reporting the latest breaking news can be pretty verbose, National Geographic for example has tons of multiple-page articles that could make a fun exercise.

Depends a lot on the book, you’d have to find a freely-accessible one that’s still relatively easy and preferably fun to read as well. Something like 君の名は would be a happy medium between manga and news I think, but I’m not sure if that site is even legal :speak_no_evil:

Thank you for your input, I have yet to be let down by someone from Amsterdam.

Could you guide me through goo when you have some time? I’m confused at the moment. The level of entry is quite high.

(link to “合(あい) の意味” page)

I think it is simply と+も :
「間」・と・も・書く
“(kanji)” ・ [quotation] ・[also]・ to.write
It is also written as “間” (note that it is the case only for first meaning)

合い服 is a synonym of 合い着.

Yes, 服 and 着 both mean clothes.

略 means abbreviation. So 合い服 is an abbreviation of 合い着?

No, “合い” (and can also be written “間” in such case) is an abbreviation of 合い服 or 合い着.

2名詞 means two nouns

No; it is “2.” (second meaning of 合い), and that second definition is: 名詞の下に付いて接尾語的に用いる。(attaches to below nouns and is used as suffix)
and three sub-definitions of that use (so, 1. and 2. are main uses it seems, rather than definitions); ㋐, ㋑, ㋒

間で始まる言葉

You searched for “words starting with 間”;
but what you actually want is just “間” : 間で一致する

By searching exact match of “間” you then have あいだ (that you don’t have with “words starting with” as that reading is not used as first part of compound words)

(link to “間(あいだ) の意味” page)

First definition of 間 (あいだ)

二つのものに挟まれた部分や範囲。あいま。

two.things [の] thing [purpose] to.sandwitch.between+passive+past section [and/or] extent/range. “aima”
section encompoassed between two things; range.
(I don’t know if 二つのものに挟まれた applies to 範囲; I suppose it doesn’t).
It also gives あいま as another definiton; which is another reading of 間

Then, examples:

「雲の間から日がさす」

cloud [attribution] interval [from] sun [subject] to.shine
the sun shines from the spaces between the clouds

「東京と横浜の間を走る電車」
Tôkyô [and] Yokohama [attribution] interval [object] to.run train.
A train that runs between Tokyo and Yokohama.

3d definition:

ある範囲の一続きの時間。

a.given extent/span [attribution] sequence [attribution] period.of.time.
Period of time of the sequence of given spans.

and its example:

「眠っている間に雨はやんでいた」

to.sleep+teiru interval [time] rain [topic] to.stop+teiru+past
The rain stopped at the time I was sleeping

(I am not sure here if the 眠っている間 is bigger or not than 雨はやんでいた)

I can’t check right now, but are you sure it doesn’t say 間もなく(まもなく)?

73.

おじいちゃんの家族は再びお見舞いに来るようになったー

... it turns that the grandfather's family is coming to visit again

おじいちゃん・の・家族・は・再び・お見舞い・に・来る・ようになった
grandfather [attribution] family [topic] again・ visite.to.ill.person・ [purpose] to.come・ to.turn.into+past

(I’m glad I could type the whole sentence without any help)

様になる is an idiom that means “to turn into, to reach the point”.
It’s linked to the previous 72. sentence;
because of what is said in 72. “… it turns that the grandfather’s family is coming to visit again”
お見舞い (おみまい) : visiting ill people (funny fact, the words/kanji mean to see dancing)

Indeed it does.

間もなく ( intervall [also] there.is.not+adverbial ) means “not longer ago”

So: 治療『を』再開して間もなく
treatment [object] re.opening+to.do+TE not.longer.ago

“The treatment restarted not longer ago…”

EGADS!!!

Suddenly, I am 200 posts behind!!!
:BLINK:

Just "checking to wave “hello”. I’ll be back “soon”. I’m still setting up my new phone and barely keeping up with reviews (and reading KiKi’s). Apparently, there are only “so many hours in a day” and I still need to add in more “work”. :SHEESH:

P.S. I like “Leaning Through Translating” :slight_smile:

Please don’t give me the answer next time, I’d like to figure it out on my own. :+1:

74. 《白鳥先生… 僕『には』このおじいさん『が』生きたい『と』思ってるかどうか 本当『は』分かりません》


僕『には』indicates the topic and the indirect object;
このおじいさん『が』“that old man” is the subject;
生きたい『と』“Want to live” quotation particle;
思ってる “to think”, continuous form;
☆かどうか: “whether or not“;
本当【ほんと】“really”;
分かりません: “don’t know”

:speech_balloon: Doctor Shiratori… I don’t know if that old man wants to live or not, I really don’t know”

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It took me a while to reply because there were some things you wrote I couldn’t understand. I’ll try to reformulante to make sure we are saying the same thing.

Which “first meaning” are you referring to? I think you might be saying that the dictionary is saying that 合い can also be written 間.

You searched for “words starting with 間”;
but what you actually want is just “間” : 間で一致する

This one is clear.

No; it is “ 2. ” (second meaning of 合い), at that second definition is 名詞の下に付いて接尾語的に用いる。(attaches to below names and is used as suffix)

So you’re saying: It’s not 2 but 2nd as in the ordinal.

By “at that second definition” you mean “and that second definition attaches to the nouns below as a suffix”. You said “names” but I think you meant to say “nouns”?

(so, 1. and 2. are main uses it seems, rather than definitions)

Which 1 and 2 are you referring to? I’m confused.

Anyhow, it’s an interesting take on the Goo dictionary. It’s still unclear to me but it was the first time, second time will be clearer.

I asked my question regarding “Goo” at Japanese Stack Exchange:

i.e. " g lobal network continues to expand infinitely" (infinity sign is represented by oo )

75. だけど…

So let’s try “Goo” again since I didn’t understand everything last time. Let’s try だけど this time. I already know what it means so it can help and making sense of the data I get when submitting my input.

This time, I’ll use screenshots so that it’s easier to be in context.

Under the 国語辞書 (Japanese dictionary) there are two entries. By entries I ultimately mean “two definitions”. I’ve identified as ① and ②. Note that both ① and ② are clickable. I’m assuming to get more information about each definition of the words.

[接]

… is used on its own here. My first dictionary gives me the following definitions:

:ledger: touch, contact, adjoin, piece together
… which could mean that it’s clickable? Not sure. Weblio is even more succinct in its definitions (which is very rare): patch.

A patch about what? At this point, I don’t know.

Let’s go back to what I think is the first definition:

「だけれど」のくだけた言い方

Now since 言い方 means “way of talking” this sentence might say:
“It has the same meaning as だけれど” as in “see だけれど for the definition since it’s going to be the same as the words have similar meaning but are written differently.

At the end of the definition, we have: →だけれども which is possibly the “official” way to write だけど and it’s also clickable. I’m thinking this will lead to the definition of that word for reference.

This is what I end up getting for だけれども:


解説 = explanation (definition?):

So I think that 接 might actually refer to part of speech in the sense that だけど is a conjunction, something which “patches” two clauses together.

前に述べたことと相反することをいうときに用いる

:speech_balloon: Used to declare that something is the opposite.

I didn’t analyse it in depth. This is based in my prior knowledge about だけど and 相反する which means “to the contrary”.


75. 《だけど… 少なくとも家族『は』こんなに強く生きて欲しいと願っています…》

:speech_balloon: “But at least the family strongly desires him to live”

(Quite happy with my breaking down of this one).

☆ New Vocabulary ☆

少なくとも【すくなくとも】at least;
こんなに: like this;


Grammar:

To turn an adjective into an adverb, I substitute the 〜い for 〜く. So 強い (strong) becomes 強く (strongly).

生きて is in the 〜て form because it links to the auxiliary 欲しい. So “strongly want to live”.

『と』is probably a quotation particle, depending on what comes after means.

願う is “to desire” (as in お願いします) in the “continuous form”.


76. 強く…

“Strongly…”


P. 25-26 is just a background so moving on to 27-28.


77: 金子敏郎享年75歳

Is just the name and age of the old man with an empty bed which I assume means he passed away.
Edit: 享年 is actually age of death. New word for me also.


78. 僕『が』初めて受け持った患者さんだ

:speech_balloon: “It was the first time I was in charge of a patient”


79. はい これで荷物『は』全部です

:speech_balloon: “Yes, that is all the luggage (his luggage)”

本当にありがとうございました

:speech_balloon: “I really want to thank you”

Yep, it’s short for 接続助詞.
くだけた言い方 means it’s an informal way of saying だけれど; だけれども is the same thing but a bit politer.

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Would it be right to say that it refers to the casual form as in です→だ?

@Zizka @YanagiPablo Hi, just dropping by with a comment:

It’s true that 間もなくliterally means ‘without an interval/period/gap in between’, and the translation ‘the treatment restarted not long ago…’ fits quite well here. However, 間もなく is usually translated as ‘soon’, ‘before long’, ‘shortly’, ‘in a short while’ and so on. I guess you could say it tends to project us forward in time, unlike ‘ago’, which makes us reflect on the time that has passed up to now. I think the phrase should be translated as ‘The treatment restarted, and before long/after a short while,…’ (his family started visiting etc.).

Ultimately, both translations mean the same thing in this case, but I’m just pointing out that 治療を再開して and 間もなく are actually part of two different blocks/clauses in the sentence, as in
治療を再開して、間もなく[the rest happened]

That’s all! Good job on the translations! I didn’t know the expression 間もなく before reading your posts.

EDIT:

Yes, generally, that’s what it means. However, in the definitions you’re looking at, the dictionary is saying that けど is a less formal form of けれど, which is a less formal form of けれども. You could see it as けれども→けれど→けど, in decreasing order of formality.

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