Kuso! - What NOT to say in Japanese - swearing, sex, and general rudness

Japanese Language
#154

For anyone curious, here’s an article about a survey conducted in 2015 about problems facing women in society in Japan.

https://www.itmedia.co.jp/business/articles/1605/26/news035_2.html

One of the options was 「令夫人」「婦人」「未亡人」「家内」のように女性に用いられる言葉が使われること
“The use of words such as these toward women” (note that the use of the suffering passive in 用いられる makes it a little hard to express the full nuance in English)

Yes, they included 家内 on that list in asking if it is a problem in society.

8.4% of respondents said that yes, that issue is a problem in society.

So, yeah, it’s not a high percentage, but the fact that it was even asked at all is interesting to me. And it’s also worth keeping in mind that no option on the list received more than 42.7%… and that was sexual harassment.

So in a survey where not even 50% of respondents think sexual harassment is a problem in society, 8.4% think the use of words like 家内 is a problem.

This doesn’t even really get into what would be said about just something like “would you want to be referred to as 家内” or “how would you feel about someone who calls their wife 家内”

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#155

I find it disingenuous to suggest that there are no second thoughts about these terms in Japan and that it’s some kind of “wokeness” that Westerners impose on Japanese society. Discussions about proper language use take place in Japan like they do in other countries – perhaps not to the same degree, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

An example would be this 2017 GQ Japan article, a publication that isn’t traditionally considered a bastion of feminism and isn’t extremely “niche” either, entitled 「嫁」という呼び方、問題あります。やめてください, which mostly discusses the term 嫁, but also touches on other terms, including 家内. The author is a Japanese woman and she is addressing a Japanese audience.

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#156

Look just 1 reply above this. Then tell me again how this would realistically be an issue for someone studying Japanese.

The whole issue is so hopelessly blown out of proportion and made into an issue, I don’t even know what to say anymore.

And I’ll leave it at this.

#157

why are you guys digging out all these edge case articles, where someone feels offended by a term?

we’re talking about realistic application by a foreigner in japan here (with the premise of the thread being “what to be careful with”), and seriously, especially in a society like japan, where the current generation “at the helm” very much dictates what’s being used by just being the majority and using it, and the fact that people are not confrontational at all, and the fact that they’re not ignorant to ignore the fact that you’re not japanese and might face language and culture related difficulties when using their language, it’s extreme hyperbole to list these terms as “dangerous to use”.

and once again, for the nth time, 家内 is not something you use with (to refer to) someone you meet on the street, it’s used for (to refer to) your own wife, and you use it if you find your wife and you are comfortable with, and you should be able to tell, seriously. because if not, your relationship problems dwarf whatever language struggles you’re going through.

if you address someone else, do it in a way that won’t get you on confrontation course (being “too close” is the key here, おまえ is a-okay in many cases, and a faux pas in many others, for example). that would fall under “common sense” in japan, but isn’t exactly something you learn by doing flashcards.

#158

Where are your articles proving the opposite? Because I feel like your argument is entirely reliant on “I asked fifty of my friends and they all said no”.

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#159

there’s no article describing “all is fine, no news”. i think there was a radio show in the uk some 70 years ago that broadcast something along those lines though.

what we’re dealing with here is internet articles that fall under “various”, interesting to read, maybe as indication for the future. but surely not a red flag in the context of this thread.

#160

If that’s the standard we’re going with, I asked my husband (who uses 妻 to refer to me) and he said while some people do still use 家内, it is beginning to fall out of favor. I also have personally never heard it used in any of the 5 prefectures I’ve lived in. :woman_shrugging:

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#161

You keep saying this like your wife is always going to be standing there when you talk to people about her. If she’s literally there, you’re likely to refer to her by name. A language learner could easily see “家内 is a word for my wife” and use it for a considerable period of time without any idea that anyone thinks it’s a problem and without the wife having any idea what is said about them (and maybe their wife doesn’t even speak Japanese).

I get that your point is “nothing bad is going to happen to you if you end up in that situation.”

Great. We get it.

But you introduced this concept by implying that we westerners invented the issue.

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#162

your husband is correct though. there’s people who use it, and it’s old-fashioned. young people don’t use boomer-language, not even in japan.

that doesn’t put it in the “be careful when you use this” category though.

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#163

You’re making it sound like I unearthed an obscure translation of a Germaine Greer anthology. I provided a link to an article from a rather mainstream Japanese men’s magazine simply as a real life example illustrating the point others have made, namely that there is a conversation about language use, in this instance about terms denoting married women, in Japan that isn’t imposed on them by Westerners who – as you put it – are “judging Japanese people” and “interpret everything using Western categories”.

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#164

The fact that it is falling out of favor with Japanese people and isn’t just an issue that westerners have made up is the point, though. You keep moving the goalposts.

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#165

if my wife stands next to me, i surely don’t call her なるみ when referring to her. i call her 連れ合い, and if i was 20 years older, i might just use 家内, unless my wife would feel uncomfortable being called that.

whoever you talk to though can’t possibly feel offended by a term that doesn’t describe them, but my very own wife, if she doesn’t even mind herself.

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#166

again, i’m not moving goal posts. see how we foreigners are having this debate here on the forums, while rarely anyone ever brings it up in real life in japan? i won’t say nobody would ever, there’s always someone who feels offended by something, but in general it’s just such a non-issue, totally blown out of proportion by, yes, mostly foreigners.

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#167

People have provided you evidence that the use of those kind of terms is being discussed by Japanese people. It isn’t just a foreigner thing.

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#168

nowhere did i say no japanese person talks about it ever.

i said it’s not an issue, and especially not in the grand scheme of things.

a minority of a small sample size of anonymous females asked feel the term “yome” makes them feel uncomfortable, we get it. that doesn’t mean the word is now on the “be careful when you use it” list, on par with てめえ or 野郎.

let’s treat data properly here.

and to add to this, what i also said is, that people who bring this up are more often than not westerners who have no clue what they’re talking about, and i stand by that point.

(fixed some typos and added the postscript)

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#169

No one thinks that 家内 is comparable to てめえ or 野郎. We are only literally responding to your framing of it, introduced by you. Doing so also doesn’t constitute “going on a rampage.”

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#170

you might want to scroll through this thread again and re-read ~50 of the replies then.

#171

I’m sorry but suggesting that this is a niche conversation that no one but a “small sample size of anonymous females” would even think about is simply disingenuous. A quick Google search is enough to find several other articles on the topic of how to address and/or speak about married women, specifically focusing on what is, or should be, considered appropriate, dating back to at least 2015:

TBS article from 2019: パートナーを呼ぶ言葉「妻・嫁・女房・奥さん・家内・カミさん」正しいのは？
Huffington Post article from 2019: 嫁さん、奥さん、妻…。呼び方を見れば、パートナーから自分がどう思われているかが、見えてくる
withnews article from 2015: 「嫁・主人」と呼んだら男女差別？ いい呼び方ありませんか？

The latter coincidentally shows the number of views (over 140,000) so it seems to be a topic that more than a few Japanese people are interested in.

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#172

that’s not what i said. re-read please before we continue this conversation.

#173

Yeah, OmukaiAndi is a real stickler about not misrepresenting people.

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