# Kitty Detectives! Week 8 Discussion 🐈 **URL:** \ **Category:** Book Clubs\ **Created:** [December 15, 2019, 5:27pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795 "2019-12-15T17:27:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Radish8](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/radish8/32/206088_2.png) [@Radish8](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Radish8)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 5:27pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/1 "2019-12-15T17:27:27Z")
# Pages 84 - 89 ## Story 2: 犯人はカポネ？ **Start Date:** 16th December **Last Week:** [Story Two Case](https://community.wanikani.com/t/x/40670) **Next Week:** [Story Three Case Part 1](https://community.wanikani.com/t/x/41062) ![Kitty%20Detectives](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/original/4X/0/8/b/08b75ad81f52b0c9023a892ee1a4fe684c4c0aef.jpeg) [にゃんにゃん探偵団 Home Thread](https://community.wanikani.com/t/x/38812) **We’re reading the whole of the Story Two Solution this week!** > **Upcoming Schedule** > > | Week | Start Date | Part | Page Numbers | > | --- | --- | --- | --- | > | Week 8 | December 16th | Story 2 Solution | 84 - 89 | > | - | December 23rd | Break 🎄 | - | > | Week 9 | December 30th | Story 3 Case | 92 - 99 | * * * ## Vocabulary List > **[Kitty Detectives Volume 2](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13w3yNZWvzjDIJy8fJ5dEd3wgkm_8CiAcJFsJzreF69I/edit#gid=281442487)** > > This Sheet is private _Please read the editing guidelines in the first sheet before adding any words!_ * * * ## Discussion Guidelines - Please blur/hide major events in the current week’s pages (however early they occur) and _any_ later content, like so: [spoiler]texthere[/spoiler] Err on the side of caution! - When asking for help, please **mention the page number** (or % for eBooks). - Don’t be afraid of asking questions, even if they seem embarrassing at first. All of us are here to learn and someone else will probably be grateful you asked! - People usually find that they engage with and enjoy the discussion much more if they don’t read ahead, though of course it’s up to you 😉 - To you lurkers out there: join the conversation, it’s fun! * * * ## Participants Mark your participation status by voting in this poll: _Poll ([view on site](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/1))_ _If you’ve read it before but will join in the discussion (or have read ahead), please select “I’m reading along”!_ * * * ---
**Author:** ![Radish8](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/radish8/32/206088_2.png) [@Radish8](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Radish8)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/2 "2019-12-15T18:10:38Z")
Oooh, not sure we’ve seen this grammar point yet in Kitty Detectives! (my apologies if we have) **Page 84** 子どもがつまみぐい **しようとして** 、おとしちゃったのよ。 The bold part in the middle is an example of volitional form (する becoming しよう) combined with とする, here connected to the next phrase as として. Volitional + とする means that you tried or attempted to do something. So in this case “a child tried to steal some, and (regrettably) dropped it”. (also a throwback to ~てしまう becoming ちゃう, or in this case the past tense ちゃった) ---
**Author:** ![ChristopherFritz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/christopherfritz/32/33825_2.png) [@ChristopherFritz](https://community.wanikani.com/u/ChristopherFritz)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/3 "2019-12-15T19:29:57Z")
For anyone reading the page on Capone’s recommendations, this chapter they’re both for Japanese fairytales, rather than western ones. Wikipedia gives decent overviews of the two: > **[Kobutori Jiisan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobutori_Jisan)** > > "Kobutori Jiisan" (こぶとりじいさん, Kobutori jīsan) translated directly as "Lump-Taken Old Man" is a Japanese Folktale about an old man who had his lump (or parotid gland tumor) taken or removed by demons after joining a party of demons (oni) celebrating and dancing in the night. > The tale is a rendition of a tale about a woodcutter (firewood-gatherer) from the early 13th-century anthology Uji Shūi Monogatari. > The tale, which is most commonly known in Japanese as "Kobutori" (瘤取り), "Kobutori Jiisan" (瘤取... > **[Shita-kiri Suzume](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shita-kiri_Suzume)** > > Shita-kiri Suzume (舌切り雀, shita-kiri suzume), translated literally into "Tongue-Cut Sparrow", is a traditional Japanese fable telling of a kind old man, his avaricious wife and an injured sparrow. The story explores the effects of greed, friendship and jealousy on the characters. > Andrew Lang included it as The Sparrow with the Slit Tongue in The Pink Fairy Book. > The basic form of the tale is common throughout the world. > Once upon a time there lived a poor old woodcutter with his wife, who earne... ---
**Author:** ![Radish8](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/radish8/32/206088_2.png) [@Radish8](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Radish8)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/4 "2019-12-15T19:39:48Z")
I haven’t read the first, but the second is like… jeez, lady. Calm down about your rice. ---
**Author:** ![ChristopherFritz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/christopherfritz/32/33825_2.png) [@ChristopherFritz](https://community.wanikani.com/u/ChristopherFritz)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/5 "2019-12-15T19:43:06Z")
> [@Radish8](#): > > jeez, lady. Calm down about your rice. ![count](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/original/4X/a/6/8/a681cb4cd181058f0904ec4de0e49e708323960b.png) ---
**Author:** ![fray](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/fray/32/225755_2.png) [@fray](https://community.wanikani.com/u/fray)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/6 "2019-12-15T20:18:43Z")
page 84 Does anyone know why でる is used in “つくえの上にフォークがでているでしょ。”? Is there a special meaning other than the ones mentioned on [jisho](https://jisho.org/word/%E5%87%BA%E3%82%8B)? They all don’t really seem to fit the context that well… or am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![ChristopherFritz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/christopherfritz/32/33825_2.png) [@ChristopherFritz](https://community.wanikani.com/u/ChristopherFritz)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/7 "2019-12-15T20:28:01Z")
> [@frayderike](#): > > They all don’t really seem to fit the context that well… or am I missing something? There wasn’t a fork on the table when Hanae and her friend left the kitchen to go into the garden. When they returned to the kitchen, there is a fork on the table. I’m going with Jisho’s definition 5: “to appear”. “It couldn’t have been Capone. After all, a fork appeared on the table, right?” ---
**Author:** ![Radish8](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/radish8/32/206088_2.png) [@Radish8](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Radish8)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 9:55pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/8 "2019-12-15T21:55:53Z")
Just to add to that @frayderike, it’s using ~ている because the fork has appeared and remains in that state. ---
**Author:** ![Rowena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/rowena/32/302571_2.png) [@Rowena](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Rowena)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 10:35pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/9 "2019-12-15T22:35:05Z")
My revamped notes for the week: > **Pages 84-5** > > ![wk p84-5](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/original/4X/6/6/0/660f7324ac278d443563d6c160f71deba262170e.jpeg) > **Pages 86-7** > > ![wk p86-7](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/original/4X/0/d/f/0df4fc51f8729ceeab2ef5eac3140ef9616160d6.jpeg) > **Pages 88-9** > > ![wk p88-9](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/original/4X/a/1/6/a16f3686336fc7a53061e71df208e0a29649bab1.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![ChristopherFritz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/christopherfritz/32/33825_2.png) [@ChristopherFritz](https://community.wanikani.com/u/ChristopherFritz)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/10 "2019-12-15T23:30:46Z")
> [@Rowena](#): > > My revamped notes for the week: Comparing the notes with what I recall from reading these pages earlier this weekend, here are a few differences: For だって here, rather than “too; as well; also”, I believe the conjunction “after all; because” is what fits in here, as Hanae is stating the reason why Capone cannot be the guilty party. For つまみぐい, since there is a fork, I’m learning toward the definition “snitching food; snatched food; secret eating; food snatched and eaten without the meal starting”. ~~Final image, for なくなって, there is also a meaning “to be consumed”. I’d have to go back and check the sentence for context, but I remember this being the meaning I got out of it.~~ Never mind on this one. I forgot the context, so having this as “missing” is correct. I’ve never seen しながら as “quality” before (but there’s a _lot_ I have yet to see!) I read this as the continuative い form of する, which is し, followed by ながら, meaning “while”, and used to state multiple actions happening concurrently. ---
**Author:** ![Rowena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/rowena/32/302571_2.png) [@Rowena](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Rowena)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 11:36pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/11 "2019-12-15T23:36:14Z")
> [@ChristopherFritz](#): > > For つまみぐい, since there is a fork, I’m leaning toward the definition “snitching food; snatched food; secret eating; food snatched and eaten without the meal starting”. I hadn’t seen that definition - that makes much more sense and you’ve saved me writing a post about it! 😁 Thanks for the other corrections as well - I seem to have a talent for poor parsing and latching on to obscure translations when something simpler makes so much more sense! ---
**Author:** ![2OC3aOdKgwSGlxfz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/2oc3aodkgwsglxfz/32/742852_2.png) [@2OC3aOdKgwSGlxfz](https://community.wanikani.com/u/2OC3aOdKgwSGlxfz)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 2:33am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/12 "2019-12-16T02:33:38Z")
> [@ChristopherFritz](#): > > Final image, for なくなって, there is also a meaning “to be consumed” The context here would be the bat disappearing from the lower part of the door, so it is probably not “to be consumed”… ---
**Author:** ![ChristopherFritz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/christopherfritz/32/33825_2.png) [@ChristopherFritz](https://community.wanikani.com/u/ChristopherFritz)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 2:44am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/13 "2019-12-16T02:44:31Z")
> [@2OC3aOdKgwSGlxfz](#): > > The context here would be the bat disappearing from the lower part of the door, so it is probably not “to be consumed”… Ah, that’s right. In this case, it was certainly not consumed! (Unless Capone was _really_ hungry.) In this case, “to be missing” (as @Rowena put) is accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Radish8](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/radish8/32/206088_2.png) [@Radish8](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Radish8)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 8:04am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/14 "2019-12-16T08:04:04Z")
I think the disadvantage of reading ahead is that you have to do _all_ the lookup work yourself 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Rowena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/rowena/32/302571_2.png) [@Rowena](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Rowena)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 8:07am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/15 "2019-12-16T08:07:45Z")
Agreed, though I have found that it sinks in better doing it by myself first, and then I have all these lovely people to ask questions of afterwards. Also, I hate feeling totally unprepared for the discussions as I did with other book attempts. ---
**Author:** ![Radish8](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/radish8/32/206088_2.png) [@Radish8](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Radish8)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 8:12am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/16 "2019-12-16T08:12:42Z")
**Page 85** 。。。おにいちゃんが、下をむいたままでてきた。 I just found this… kind of odd? I feel like there should be a particle or something associated with まま. Then again, まま is just one of those words I hate… It’s used again on page 88 in just the same way, with seemingly no connection to the next bit… Not sure what I’m asking, just expressing my dissatisfaction with the word まま 😅 * * * Also… how did Hanae know that the boy was hiding in the cupboard? She was _very_ confident of that, but it seems equally likely to me that he would have just rushed out of the room altogether after breaking the plate. ---
**Author:** ![Belthazar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/belthazar/32/4469_2.png) [@Belthazar](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Belthazar)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 9:01am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/17 "2019-12-16T09:01:47Z")
> [@Radish8](#): > > Also… how did Hanae know Quite. I’m away this week, so I don’t have my book on me, but I made a point of reading this passage before I left, and while the outcome matches my prediction, I don’t quite get some of the… I guess the characters’ motivations. ---
**Author:** ![fray](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/fray/32/225755_2.png) [@fray](https://community.wanikani.com/u/fray)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 7:14pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/18 "2019-12-16T19:14:35Z")
Page 86 あなた、どうして犯人はおにいちゃんのほうってわかったの？ Trying to understand the grammar here… あなた, どうして…わかった = how did you know / how did you realize … の = asking for explanation I always struggle with のほう … I just encountered […のはXのほうだ](https://bunpro.jp/grammar_points/633) meaning “it is X who …” yesterday (page 84) but I’m wondering… what is のほう doing on its own…? Is this basically the same as のはXのほう just instead of の there’s already a specific noun “犯人” (so we don’t need の)? So… 犯人はおにいちゃんのほう = it is the older brother who is the criminal? But there’s no だ (same on page 84) … instead there’s って What exactly is the purpose of って here? Is it = は? ---
**Author:** ![Radish8](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/radish8/32/206088_2.png) [@Radish8](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Radish8)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 12:05am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/19 "2019-12-17T00:05:06Z")
> [@frayderike](#): > > I just encountered […のはXのほうだ](https://bunpro.jp/grammar_points/633) meaning “it is X who …” yesterday (page 84) but I’m wondering… what is のほう doing on its own…? Is this basically the same as のはXのほう just instead of の there’s already a specific noun “犯人” (so we don’t need の)? I might be wrong here (I can’t access the Bunpro point), but is the first の in your construction not a slightly generic noun placeholder? It looks like it would be acting to nominalise a verb, but instead we have (as you suggest) the ‘actual’ noun 犯人. って can act as an informal topic marker - I think it usually carries a nuance of the speaker having some kind of judgement / evaluation of the situation, which fits exactly here - she is saying that Hanae had determined that the older brother was the culprit. ---
**Author:** ![Rowena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/rowena/32/302571_2.png) [@Rowena](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Rowena)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 1:24am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795/20 "2019-12-17T01:24:33Z")
Page 86 Just to add a bit… I heard のほう a lot in Japan (without those extra bits as on Bunpro) - in this form it serves to emphasise one of two or more choices (as one could perhaps guess from the use of ほう・方). Here, the unspoken choice is between the two children (now that Hanae’s narrowed down that it was a child that did it). So, much more loosely translated, something like, “How did you know to _direct your suspicions towards_ the older brother?” > [@frayderike](#): > > But there’s no だ The phrase starts with どうして so cannot end with the だ ~~assertion~~ declarative marker. Even more on のほう - I used it mostly when making group arrangements; there would be a discussion of time/date/location for doing something, and if it suited me I would chime in with 私の方がいい。- “As for me (from among several people), that’s good.” [Next page](https://community.wanikani.com/t/kitty-detectives-week-8-discussion/40795.md?page=2)