They just got the database working? That’s disconcerting. It sounds like they’re not even close to complete if they’re just now assembling their storage system.
“basic SRS beta” also sounds like…just WaniKani.
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Hopefully they’ll be providing their own set of mnemonics as well because you can have community-generated mnemonics without a customer base. Although it sounds nice, it’s going to be a lot of work. I know that I, for one, will definitely not pay money for a service that I have to contribute to their bottom-line by having to compose mnemonics for them.
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Or they didn’t make any progress at all…
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Nevertheless, SRS (the way people use it) won’t save you from Grammar. Ask Bunpro users if they really know the stuff they learned there.
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I’m in to deep to in WK to use this probably, but maybe if they manage to get their act together they’ll spur the WK team to finally let us add our own vocab and kanji to the system.
Yes I know I can use Anki or HouHou or whatever, but WK is clean and has a great back-end (also app accessible) that I would like to work off 
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As someone who has “failed” several times in finding the right way of learning japanese, I think that what really matters is not the technology (scripts, customizations, apps talking to you in your sleep, etc.), but the content. I’ve tried countless flash-card systems, but they either dump too much information on you, like five different readings of a kanji at the same time, or they require you to tweak/import/customize, which is doing a lot of work that’s not fun and unrelated to learning Japanese.
What separates WK from all other resources out there is a curated selection of radicals, kanji, reading, and words, that are progressively laid out without overwhelming the user. For what I care, WK could be a printed book with exercise sheets, and it would still be superior to most resources out there.
That’s why, I don’t care so much about a demo of a service displaying the technology. What I will judge them on is only the content.
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I don’t see how this is related to etoeto’s progress (or lack thereof).
As for grammar and SRS, I think it can help. SRS won’t teach you the nuances of grammar (for that you definitely need a good book and a lot of exeercise and natives to ask advice to), but it definitely will help to memorise the words/phrases once you know how to use it. Bunpro includes links to articles and grammar books pages, you are supposed to read that stuff not just blindly do the reviews.
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I think I know very well how Bunpro works mate 
Been on their thread from day 1.
Well, I meant to connect it this new product,since there’s how the original talk about EtoEto started.
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Just curious – what are you basing this on? Has there been some type of study on the effectiveness of SRS for learning grammar?
Grammar is a struggle for me so I’m genuinely interested in learning how to improve the way I study it.
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I’m not really denying SRS. It’s that I think the current method of applying SRS to grammar is not good enough. It doesn’t allow you to see the nuances of grammar, because you’re not tested on that. But in real life, you don’t build the sentence just from applying the grammar term. You need to know its nuance, you need to know how particles are supposed to work, etc. Even within the same grammar point, it can be confusing. The particle に can indicate both the doer or the receiver of the action in the passive voice. How do you test your recognition to identify when it goes with the doer or the receiver when you’re only being tested on conjugation?
SRS can work with grammar, but you need to test these things out too, not just the straightforward “EN meaning” => “JP grammar point”. Bunpro is trying to revolutionize this, but I got to a point where I wasn’t even reading the sentences because I didn’t need to. All I needed was the hint and booom, 90%+ correct reviews all the time.
To sum up, SRS can work with grammar, we’re just doing it wrong.
My 2c of course
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That makes sense. I’ve definitely bumped into some of the drawbacks you’ve outlined here with Bunpro and other tools. Thanks for the insight.
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@jprspereira,
I haven’t used Bunpro myself, other than browsing to see what Pushindawood came up with (he and I started on WK at about the same time, so I feel a little bit of kinship)… but your experience is in line with what I was hypothesizing. Not because there’s anything wrong with the site per se, but because grammar is a different kind of information, and requires different methods of presentation and practice to internalize efficiently.
I’m anxious to see if/how EtoEto’s future approach will address those difficulties. It would be nice to hear how their test-run has been working out on the new prototype, but I understand their radio silence.
I have my own notions of how to approach grammar, but that’s a different topic. Someday…
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I believe this is pretty doable to be honest because when you’re going from an approach of teaching grammar, you need to know where the questions come from. That’s where you need to use SRS.
Simply put, the solution is about turning an usual workbook into SRS. Another problem with textbooks is that they might lack important information the student should know about. I assume this lack of information exists because either they don’t want the students to become overwhelmed or they lack the knowledge to know which information is relevant.
Another thing is establishing rules. A student can easily binge on grammar and not learn things right. This happens for several reasons, but most people don’t know their limits in terms of retaining information or they don’t know how to study (a language). Simple things like “this textbook was designed so that you study 1 grammar point per day during an year and achieve x” (kinda like how Wanikani works) can change the game.
In terms of order of material, I do think following the JLPT order can hurt in the long term. Sure, going in a JLPT order might seem attractive, but there are grammar points considered to be at different JLPT levels that should be taught together.
I’m writing a textbook as I go along learning Japanese and this is pretty much what I noticed. Trying to teach while being the student has its benefits in my opinion. But again, just my 2c xD
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The question is, will your grammar product come out before or after EtoEto?
@jprspereira I agree with you that Bunpro’s way of SRSing grammar isn’t perfect, but it’s still better than doing nothing (which is what I had been doing).
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Now you know why I’m trying to cut back on scripting
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Oh, I definitely agree with you. But to be honest, if most of my results are coming from reviewing my notes/chatting with natives, why continue with another SRS program? The thing Bunpro gave me more was options for things to study since I never went for a textbook. However, I’ll probably buy one so that will be solved.
And also, don’t get me wrong. You know I’ve always been a supporter of Bunpro from Day 1. We’re the most active guys in their thread. I’m just afraid they might not realize that they need to have a strong trunk built, not just beautiful branches.
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Judging by the Trello board and the complete lack of information, I would have mastered Japanese, Swahili, Greek, and Old Macedonian before EtoEto is anywhere in sight. Goes without saying that @rfindley’s digital grammarian will be out 
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Noticed you read my comments @pushindawood . Please, don’t take it personal xD I still firmly believe in your product and I think it’s a very good thing you’re doing. Also, the team should be praised nonstop. The way you dealt with all the buzz about you going Pay2Use was fantastic Behind great products there are great people.
Can’t wait to see where you guys are going next.
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@jprspereira Ever since you posted that glorious gif of Tyrion you have been extremely supportive of everything that we have done. Every piece of advice, criticism or feedback that you have provided has been taken very seriously. We care just as much about what people think of Bunpro as we care about the site itself. You have never minced words with us and we appreciate that very much. All of the honest, constructive feedback that we have received from you and others has shaped Bunpro into what it is today and will continue to influence how we move forward. As always, cheers!
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