Slightly offtopic, but this exactly is my definition of understanding a language; understanding it well enough so that I understand the humour. Obviously there’s a cultural aspect there as well. Or at least, it’s my personal aim when I study Japanese language or culture.
I completely agree with the rest of your story.
Absolutely. My exposure to Japanese predates cellphones (it’s true!) and 電話ーでんわ was the only word for phone (that I’m aware of) until fairly recently. Cell phones are 携帯ーけいたい, and it’s only recently that people started using the katakana word スマホ for smart phone.
Japanese people understand sarcasm fine… but trying to use it as a non-native speaker is probably just going to confuse people because they aren’t even sure you can get regular Japanese right yet.
Here’s a good post on Quora about the different types of sarcasm and irony used in Japan: https://www.quora.com/Is-the-usage-of-sarcasm-common-in-the-Japanese-language/answer/Isaac-Hsu-1
The author of that talks about 皮肉 as a more generic term for sarcasm, satire, etc. and 嫌味 (iyami) as a more biting kind of sarcasm.
He also points out (as others here have) that Japanese folks definitely have a sense of sarcasm, which matches with my own experience of living there briefly back in 2005.
As a haikuist, I’d like to point out that there are a lot of wonderfully sarcastic waka, senryu, hokku, etc. from at least as far back as the 1350s. In fact, the root word for haiku is 俳諧連歌 (haikai renga), which means roughly “popular or unorthodox linked verse”, and as English Wikipedia notes early haikai “often derived their humor from satire or puns.” Shirane Haruo has a brief description of them here.
How sarcastic are they?
My favourite example is from the inu tsukubashu, and is described pretty well in this web article.
the robe of haze is wet at its hem
Princess Sao of spring pissed as she started
This sounds just vulgar, but it’s subverting typical courtly poetry at the time, which described the hazy dampness of spring as being the hem of the Saohime’s robe, wet with her tears. (The wet hem of a robe being a stereotypical way of describing sorrow in waka.)
So I’d say that sarcasm/irony definitely is a concept with a long and varied history in Japan.
Like others here, I suspect the misunderstandings around sarcasm have more to do with cultural differences. We currently have a student assistant where I work who is Japanese, and because our work environment is, uh, a little sarcastic, she is often taken aback when her supervisor seems to be asking her to do something ridiculous. She understands that it’s sarcasm, but it’s so out of place that it takes her a while to parse it, every time.
Japanese Wikipedia, interestingly, redirects to either 嫌味 or イロニー (irony) when I search for 皮肉, and the page for 嫌味 seems to be a more catch-all phrase while the page for イロニー refers to the much more narrowly-defined meaning of the term as used by (classical Greek) rhetoric and (Kierkegaardian) philosophy.
Don’t mean to derail the thread (although I think the question has been answered now?) but I’m really curious about this! Never heard someone describe themselves as a haikuist before. I don’t know much about haiku but the ones you listed sound interesting.
I was watching “Switched” on Netflix last week… and someone in the show used the word, the subtitle translated it as irony, and it both made sense in the sentence and in the scene. They knew what they were writing and the actor knew what she was doing.
I do believe they have both of these things… it may just be a matter of it being less common. Perhaps also with the internet, and everything being more global, the younger generation(s) are starting to get a taste for it?
But yeah, it was definitely in a Japanese Drama I just watched.
And since you have that avatar (though I can’t tell for sure what it is) isn’t the boy in Haruhi basically incapable of saying things without sarcasm?
Let me put it this way:
Bus has a kanji version too. 乗合自動車 (のりあいじどうしゃ). It’s just not used anymore.
Exactly, バス, at least according to Jisho, is a common word, while 乗合自動車 isn’t. Just like how 皮肉 is a common word, while アイロニ－ isn’t. Makes sense to learn the common way it’s used, que no? Though, admittedly, that rule is sometimes thrown away in favour of just learning whatever word reinforces the kanji you’re learning. But that’s still in favour of learning 皮肉 over アイロニ－.
Sarcasm is actually very common, and I agree with everyone saying it’s the language barrier that makes the myth that Japanese people don’t understand or don’t use sarcasm prevalent. But, to understand sarcasm you need to really know how the language and culture works, kind of like with any humor that goes beyond slapstick. And last time I checked, there’s sarcastic and cheeky humor all over the place in anime, which is made by Japanese people, but the translators/localizers (who should have a good understanding of all that) usually write it in a way that delivers naturally enough it’s easy to forget it was a Japanese show with Japanese jokes written for Japanese people.
That’s why it’s a myth; most people saying “Japanese people don’t understand/use sarcasm” don’t have enough knowledge and familiarity with Japanese culture and language to know that’s not true, but they go about saying it as if it’s fact.
I’d characterize Kyon as more snarky than sarcastic, but sometimes I’m not sure what the difference is anyway.
Just for anyone who’s interested in the digression, I created a new post about writing, reading, and learning haiku.
Just adding my own experience to the bucket.
6 years in Japan and I totally agree that Japanese understand and do use a lot of sarcasm.
From very simple ones like “Hey, can you check my Japanese on this e-mail to our professor?” “Sure, 10,000 yen” from my university classmates, to more complex ones; such as in a group setting insistently referring to someone who was clearly below them (as in kohai or younger) as senpai, because they were upset with something that person did or the way they were behaving towards them. (or just wanted to tease them for the sake of it)
Also, I’ve seen in several occasions Japanese answering “バカにしてるの？” to compliments that could be seen as exaggerated or out of place (and that sometimes were indeed sarcasm), what shows that yes, they are quite aware of it.
The most recent one I can remember was this guy who was making compliments to me and when I answered he should tell my company’s human resources department, because I need desperately to improve my image, his answer was a deadpan “sure, give me the phone number” stretching his hand towards me. If that is not sarcasm, I don’t know what it is.
In an interesting coincidence, this sentence came up in today’s reading of Kiki:
「じゃ、 あんた、 行っ て くださる の」
Context: extremely pregnant wife wants husband to deliver something ASAP to one of their best customers when they close their bakery, and he wants to do it the next morning.
The register shifts between extremely informal and direct ‘あんた’ to formal honorific ‘くださる’. The register shift is what created the sarcasm here.
Yeah I noticed that…
Because Slapstick is universal!!! 
LOL! Yes, sarcasm is just as prevalent in Japanese as it is any other language.
I worked for a Japanese company in Japan and there was no shortage of sarcasm in my department. My boss even had a pretty hilarious ironic nickname (which he did not appreciate). You can see this in a lot of live action films as well.
Pretty much. Either sarcasm, or cynicism, depending on his mood and what’s happening, I think.
XD
@QuackingShoe He is absolutely, 100% snarky. But I’d say snark is a subcategory of sarcasm.
From what I’ve researched, in general, the
Japanese have no concept of irony or sarcasm.
I can’t say much about Japan, but in Britain this is what we believe about Americans. 