Isn't production surreal sometimes?

[GearAid]

I just started using LangCorrect and just, wow
I mean I’ve only been on it for like an hour but from the small amount of time I’ve spent on it

It’s amazing how much incorrect stuff you just don’t notice. I mean, I know it’s only natural that I wouldn’t have a clear, intuitive idea of what is grammatically right and wrong in Japanese, but when you write something it always seems right in your head, you know? If it didn’t, you wouldn’t be able to write it.

Even my idea of what’s right and wrong in English isn’t as strong as I thought it would be. Although, that’s a little more unexpected. I used to be very good at grammar. It reminds me of a thing I was looking at yesterday about “Things Japanese People Accidentally Say that are Rude in English!” where I couldn’t figure out why any of the things listed were rude. Maybe I’m rude?

I guess I kinda notice that when correcting, too? Like the people writing are probably pretty confident in how right they are, and yet from my perspective they’re clearly not. But in a way they kinda are right, too? They can hold communication with themselves, and that at least means something

Also, it’s a stark contrast to the people on HelloTalk who correct practically nothing. I always thought (somewhat secretly) that I was a bit better at Japanese than my friend since he always gets corrected more than I do, but I think it’s moreso that the kinds of mistakes we tend to make are different. Not better or worse, but different. I think, he tends to make more mistakes with particles and I tend to make more mistakes with word choice. If your word choice is messed-up, someone might not understand what you mean at all and avoid correcting it, or they might think you meant to say what you didn’t.

It’s also kinda weird how it’s seemingly harder to notice spelling mistakes, too? I mean I generally know how things are spelled very well, so I go like “Oh! How didn’t I notice that??” when they’re pointed out, but if I’m just reading what I wrote I often miss them entirely.

Does anyone have any tips for improving your production? Like making what you say more grammatical and nice-sounding. Is it just a result of doing it more + studying grammar + reading/listening more, or is there anything specific you can do? Also lol why do I always feel like I’m getting worse at it? Do I have a brain tumor?

Also, anyone want to drop their LangCorrect account? Mine is here. I’ll respond to the person who corrected me soon just really tired rn

[Leebo]

@vanilla

[Vanilla]

I read your post on langcorrect and I’m curious about two things:

1. Are you using a dictionary or google while you make your posts
2. Did you read a lot before getting into outputting?

[GearAid]

Hey! Thanks for looking at it!

1. Usually! I try not to at first cause I think it negatively affects my memory but if I I’m confused about something I’ll usually do some research.

2. Not a lot but some. I really like reading, so I do it when I can, but I’m not very quick at it yet, so overall I haven’t read very much. Up until like a month ago, I used to keep track of total pages read. I remember reaching the 1k milestone and then forgetting about it entirely (I… do that a lot lol)

[GearAid]

Btw kinda unrelated but I recognize you two from around 3-4 years ago. It’s cool to see you’re still here

Surreal thing #5837 of today

[Vanilla]

@GearAid

• Usually! I try not to at first cause I think it negatively affects my memory but if I I’m confused about something I’ll usually do some research.
• Not a lot but some. I really like reading, so I do it when I can, but I’m not very quick at it yet, so overall I haven’t read very much. Up until like a month ago, I used to keep track of total pages read. I remember reaching the 1k milestone and then forgetting about it entirely (I… do that a lot lol)

In terms of tips to improve output, I guess it depends on what you want to output. Your post kinda reads a lot like a book for some parts. If thats what you’re going for, then no problem. But thats actually why mao conjugated some verbs into the renyoukei for you rather than te form. But if you’re looking for stuff you can more use in a conversation, simple is best usually. For making what you say sound better and more grammatical, being able to strongly wield a few words has served me better than being able to have a grasp on many. Watching or listening to stuff that has authentic conversation might be good for you. Just pay attention for when they say something that you’ve wanted to say and notice their wording, perhaps?

[GearAid]

Thanks for the tips!

Hmm it was kinda? I probably should have committed to it more than I did

Thanks, I’ll try that! Maybe I can keep a notebook and write down when I hear something like that! Do you think podcasts might be good? For authentic conversation
That would probably work both ways, too? Like I could write down nice sentence structures I find when reading

[Vanilla]

Yeah I listen to the soko ani podcast and I think they have pretty normal conversation.

In general, its been said a million times, but language isnt something you create really. Its more copying if anything and switching out certain words sometimes. Im not good enough at output to give you any really specific advice, but I think the goal should just be absorbing sentence structures and then practicing using them so you can naturally recall them and not just recognize them. I read quite a bit before I started outputting and I can tell you a lot of stuff I could recognize and understand was stuff I couldnt produce. The benefit, however, is that when someone corrects me its more like “ah yeah right right, that sounds better” rather than “hmm ok Ill try to remember that”.

[GearAid]

Thanks! I’ll keep that in mind!

I see, I see. Copying and trying to use. It’s true that that’s pretty much how I learned to talk normally in English (as opposed to sounding like a specific genre of book), so it makes sense that it would work well for Japanese. Absorb, practice, recall. Absorb, practice, recall.

Do I click the solution button now? What does that do?

[Leebo]

@GearAid

Do I click the solution button now? What does that do?

If you want. It just lets people know that you no longer need help. If you’re looking for more discussion, hold off.

[GearAid]

Ooh okay! Thanks for explaining

I always like more discussion, so I’ll hold off

[pocketcat]

@Vanilla

Just pay attention for when they say something that you’ve wanted to say and notice their wording, perhaps?

Something I’ve been meaning to do (and ultimately to lazy for thus far) is collect all my little “this is a convenient way to say something I can see myself often saying” into an Anki deck so they actually stick. I’m not even entirely sure what I would put on the front of the card - scenario prompts or the other side of the hypothetical conversation perhaps?

[GearAid]

Dude if you ever end up doing that
Maybe share if it’s not too personal
I’m so curious

[pocketcat]

It’s all scattered across my notes so don’t hold your breath Some is basic (ie, multiple polite humble replies to 日本語お上手ですね) and some is more personal (I often get asked if my hair is ‘real’, and no, it is dyed).

I suppose if someone could also set out with a list of scenarios in mind, ask a tutor or post questions on HiNative, then accumulate base sentences that way?

[GearAid]

Ooh hey point
Man the “is your hair real?” is a new one. You would think people know about being able to dye hair by now

Maybe? I wonder how easy or difficult it would be to think of scenarios

also gotta sleep eyes falling

[euni]

@GearAid

Things Japanese People Accidentally Say that are Rude in English

I’m really curious about this, could you share the link? Reminds me of a story of a Japanese person who said “What is wrong with you?” instead of saying “What’s wrong?”

That said, I know exactly what you mean with output, especially how it feels to see other people’s English. I always think to myself, “yeah, it’s not perfect English but I understood them just fine, sooo…” and sometimes I feel like I just wanna compliment them on that on its own, that they’ve practiced enough to make sense even if it’s grammatically incorrect. But a lot of people want more than just “making enough sense”, haha.

I’ve always found the language exchange in output and correction to be interesting, and I think you put why into words pretty nicely.

I agree that a very core aspect of improving output is to mimic/copy after native speakers. I always go to Twitter and search a few keywords in Japanese to see how it’s used, or to see if they’ve ever used it in the way I was thinking up in my head.

Like, if I wanna use 言っておきたいこと, I search it on twitter to see how it’s commonly used in random tweets (just did this the other day because I was second guessing myself).

It’s not the perfect way to get better at production, but I prefer to reduce the amount of times I bug a Japanese person with my silly questions, so most of my solutions are stuff like this.

Something I wanna try out soon is having a Japanese teacher correct my work and really dig deep into how I can enhance my writing/expressions. Sometimes you’re limited to your own vocabulary, and by extension the correctors would then only correct what you’ve produced, so having a teacher explain to me extra phrasing or things I could add inbetween my writing would be lovely.