Intermediate Japanese Book Club // Now Reading: セーラー服と機関銃

Are you sure they bailed? Maybe they’re quietly reading in the shadows… having gone back to their forum-lurking ways.

Or perhaps they’re too shy to say they’re struggling… or read so far ahead they don’t want to ruin it for anyone.

(Where did you all go? There were 32 people last I counted!)

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As for reading in the future I am not sure if I will join or not. My schedule (personal and work) can be pretty unpredictable and it’s easy for me to get overwhelmed quickly (which is basically happened this time. I hate when life gets in the way)

However I might suggest a method I have seen used in schools: In each chapter everyone is given different roles. For example some people are in charge of discussion questions, some people look into vocabulary, some into characters and how they are described, etc etc. Not sure if that would make it too homework-like though… but it would give us structure and make everyone responsible for something,

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Yes exactly :smiley:

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I think many of those who didn’t participate who joined on No. 6 is like me, desperately wanted to join but it was so high above current level that I didn’t get past page one.

This split shouldn’t affect the current group at all. The next book should be the same as so many have already ordered it. It should be set as the Intermediate/Advanced group (might not be enough to have a separate Advanced yet, but maybe as we grow there could be one of each =) )

But all those who couldn’t keep up with that high level will get a chance to pick a book of their own that is much much easier, but still hard enough to be challenging. These people are most likely not able to keep up with the other group anyway. And there are those who are somewhere in the middle who join both. I have bought the next book and will give it a try, though I doubt I’ll be able to make it just yet. Knowing it is an easier book I want it so I can read it later if I’m unable now. I will keep buying all the book club books =)
And I’m sure advanced learners will come in and be a great help for us beginners too =^_^=

We will learn together and grow together. And as we do more and more people will become proficient readers and able to join the Intermediate group. And the more we grow together the more Advanced readers there will be so we can have three groups, each with more people than the current one in the end. If we keep this up and keep encouraging each other and going a decent pace that isn’t too overwhelming nor too slow I’m sure more and more people will find an interest in joining and staying with us

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So this thread went way beyond, lol! I actually have Autumn Prison already and simply wanted a “slow group” I could read with, since I was never going to make it to 5 pages a day with my patchwork comprehension.

That said, I love the three-group idea but I would love to have them be essentially linked. Maybe the higher-ups could swoop down with their wisdom and enlighten us past our ignorance every so often.

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Yeah, what I said doesn’t make sense. I was focused on using the forum categories for no reason :stuck_out_tongue:

Ok, I voted for 22nd october, but I will start at 4th or th november(after my finals).^^
This time I will definetly participate! :smiley:

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So, I got Autumn Prison today and read the first ten pages on the train as well as bits and bobs at random from later chapters. For people debating whether to join, I can tell you two things:

One: it is significantly easier than No.6. It seems to be mostly set in the real world and it doesn’t look like there are going to be any long descriptions of the infrastructure and social systems of an imaginary dystopian city. I think we would seriously struggle to find an easier book without going down the books for kids / graded reader route.

Two: it is still going to be tough for anyone below a solid intermediate level.

For context, I’ve never taken a JLPT test, but I have some practice material. I find the N3 stuff quite manageable and can answer the questions with about 80% accuracy. I find N2 stuff very challenging and only get about half right - even after taking far longer than would be allowed in the test.

While reading Autumn Prison, I could comfortably read five pages on a fifteen minute train ride. There were lots of words I was unsure of, but I could follow the story very easily and most of the words I didn’t know I could guess at with a fair amount of confidence.

I think with a dictionary and some assistance from other readers people at about an N4 level could follow the story and enjoy reading. It would be a challenge, but doable. And, like I said, I don’t think it would be realistic to find anything easier.

I think the problem with looking for something that is actually at an N4/5 level is made clear by looking at N4/5 reading passages. You don’t get books written for native speakers like that. I agree with @AnimeCanuck - for beginner level reading, you really need reading created for beginners (NHK etc). If people want to experience native material, they need to be prepared for the fact it’s going to be a struggle. However, again like AnimeCanuck said: if everybody struggles together, there’s more chance of being able to push yourself forward.

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Thanks for your assessment of Autumn Prison :blush: Hopefully a lot more people can participate this time around~

I guess the question now is what exactly a Beginner book club would be reading. I think now would be a good time for people to give some concrete suggestions for beginner-friendly reading material - books/manga/etc. written for small children could be an option, or previously mentioned resources like NHK. It all just depends whether the folks who stated interest in a beginner-level book club would be interested in the proposed books~

For me, two possibilities immediately spring to mind. One is to read short novels for Japanese kids. Some of these can be pretty interesting - I have an adaption of 君の名は for example - despite their intended audience. Alternatively, a beginner group could read a manga since having the pictures will obviously help a lot with comprehension. It would also be something different from the “book” book group and might encourage people to try both.

I’ve recommended this series a few times on here. It is written for kids, but the stories are pretty gruesome and not at all what I would expect from a kids’ book. I still read them to practice speed reading, reinforcing common grammar points etc

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Okay, great! At the very least, you and I could have our own book club if no one else is interested. :slight_smile:

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Yeah, for the beginner group I expect it to be mostly focused on manga, I hope that isn’t a problem for most participants.

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Perhaps they didn’t all bail, but many who said they were going to participate haven’t really contributed to the thread even regarding earlier parts of the book that they might have read. Maybe I’m still a bit irritated because the start was delayed to accommodate people who, for the most part, haven’t said much anything about their participation status since committing. Alas, it’s not much that can be said or done about it now, but I hope that with this next book, the members will be committed to at least communicating whether they will continue or not.

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I tried reading what Autum Prison is about, it gave me chills xP.
To be trapped over and over on the same day.
I’m good. I kind don’t like the subject of this one, so i’ll wait for the next book.
But I’ll be lurking in the club to see what you guys are discussing and learning so i can keep myself involved.
:+1:

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As far as the question of “what will beginners even read”, I think it’s fair to expect to be reading kids books and beginner manga in a beginner group. If you don’t like that, then yes I think you should consider trying to push through the intermediate level.

As far as the “It’s going to be a struggle, but let’s struggle together” idea (paraphrased)- I think it’s absolutely true that anyone who wants to read native material should be prepared for a struggle. However, everyone should also be prepared for it to be very slow, which is somewhat at odds with a book club with page expectations. As ccook said, my problem is time more than anything. A beginner level would be much easier to struggle with on a time limit, for me at least.

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Same a little, I feel like I could have manged it in the middle of the summer, but the start date happened to be right on the week of my math final, and then I had pack up and move back to campus which also took up my time, and then classes began and there was no way for me to catch up.

As soon as I get myself together think I’m going to use the time before the start date to maybe speed read through it, and then go back through it with the group slower to really understand like @riccyjay suggested.

But I’ll have to see, I might end just reading with the group, and focus on completing tobira before the start date. (I’m on chapter 7)

ALSO I want to know, are doing two separate groups then ? One for beginner, and one for intermediate/advanced? Or all we separating it into all three? And @riccyjay, since you’ve read about a couple pages what would say is a good pace?

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Personally, I don’t agree that reading should be a struggle. Yes, it can’t be easy either as it needs to have some content to learn from. However, trying to read a book where you don’t know 20% of it is too much. I would say that the ideal percentage of things you don’t know should be around 5%. I read a study like 2 years ago where the ideal percentage of progress for professional athletes to excel was 4%. Not sure if the conclusion was these exact words/number, but I can’t find it.

Not saying that what you know has to be 100% perfect. More like, 5% of things should make you struggle. Beginners also tend to progress faster so there’s that to take into account.

The only reason to look at something that you’ll struggle with is to help you realize that there’s still a lot to learn and that you can’t enter the comfort zone.

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I would say that’s the safest bet for now. The Japanese Book club v1 would be used for Intermediate/advanced people (allowing the already arranged 2nd book to happen) and a new club for beginners would be added.

I think struggling is fine, as long as it’s not the only set of reading/practice material being covered. Especially in my case seeing a mixture of both easy and difficult material helps me learn new grammar points more easily than by sticking to textbooks alone. However, very few can persevere through it and actually improve. It’s also a massive time sink to constantly look up new words and kanji.+

N4 is probably the sweet spot beginners should aim for. Tackling Japanese reading without familiarity of all the conjugations and practice with relative clauses seems a bit… silly to me. Understanding this much is what really lets people to start understanding the gist of native material and it’s also the point where a lot of bilingual reading resources become available. Anyone who hasn’t reached this point should definitely give a quick pass on Genki II/Japanese the Manga Way/(last resort) Tae Kim’s Guide.

+This is one of the reasons I recommended finding an easy web novel or something before. I tackle a lot of content above my level using Rikaigu, which shows definitions, readings, and conjugation breakdowns hovering over text. It significantly cuts back on the amount of time needed to challenge overly advanced materials.

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Haha…5%…

If only.

Hell, 20% would be nice. I feel like I’m at 20% for comprehension. (Now, I’m sure that’s an exaggeration, but not by a lot.)

I am happy I saw the anime first, or I might’ve given up by now. I don’t know how much that has helped, but probably a lot.

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