How long can I delay learning grammar?

What’s the point in learning how to read if you can’t read anything?

Start yesterday.

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Japanese Ammo with Misa is great because she’s slow and repeats things constantly. To me, however, it feels like more of a chore to watch her videos.

I really liked watching the Japanese From Zero series on YouTube. It’s very grammar oriented, George is cool / goofy and you can just sit there and enjoy an episode and get something out of it without the pain of opening a textbook.

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No need to delay it for too long imo. Just don’t get fixated with textbooks either. Those will explain you the basics, read that , read the examples …DON’T stay too long (or at all) drilling those exercises. Your real practice will be when you start to reading and overall consuming material.
So probably is best to go through that Genki book over a period of 2-3 months perhaps (I mean read a chapter, maybe watch a video explaning the same thing too and you will be as clear as you will be about that point in your “first brush” of knowledge). Then with the accumulated kanji, vocab, and superficial grammar jump into a graded readers series, a manga or similar. You will be seen those basic grammar patterns so often that you’ll own them progressively.

Of course you’ll review grammar again, as vocab and kanji for sure. But it’s ok. You’ll cement your knowledge by using what you have learned in a context other than a sample sentence.

Besides that, you can always have a grammar reference book and consult that when doubts emerge, popular ones are the series: Dictionary of (basic/intermediate/advance) japanese grammar and (my favorite) the “Handbook of Japanese Grammar Patterns”. A quick look up will clarify a lot when you bump with new grammar or even grammar that you know but can have a wider use than what you originally knew.

Anyway, I think reading about grammar it’s a necessary step, so totally go with it, but the learning happens someplace else than in textbooks.

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If your goal is Manga focused, maybe consider Japanese the Manga Way. The link is a tofugu review.

This should be more applicable than Genki. Even if you get through Genki I & II, the amount of informal casual dialogue and manga’s style of presentation will just be another obstacle when you try to read manga, might as well learn it all together.

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I started learning grammar before I started WaniKani. There wasn’t any sort of difficulty in any of it.

As long as you can read Hiragana, Katakana, learn all of the vocabulary and kanji in whatever workbook/learning material you’re using, then you can (and should) do grammar.

In my opinion knowing more grammar is more important than knowing more vocabulary/kanji, since you can explain complicated things with limited vocabulary, but you can’t explain anything at all with limited grammar.

Just like it’s not a good idea to delay learning Kanji, it’s not a good idea to delay learning grammar.

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Because there’s so many people saying don’t put off grammar, I’m just gonna say the opposite: Ignore grammar for now.

If you have a limited amount of time right now and you’d need to slow down WaniKani in order to study grammar simultaneously, don’t do it.
It’s more efficient to focus on kanji until you’re level 10 or even 15.
If you’re following Tofugus ridiculously detailed guide to learning Japanese, “You should know around 300 kanji and 1,000 Japanese vocabulary words, and your pronunciation should be getting better, or at least you’re being conscious about improving it. Now it’s time to kick Japanese grammar’s butt.”
That is having finished level 9, aka being level 10.

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If you’re into watching videos, there is also Nihongo no mori (日本語の森) on youtube which is much faster than Misa’s videos (I prefer the speed, personally - just be prepared to pause and/or rewatch). They have videos for all levels, so don’t get confused! I’d recommend you start off with this one:

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You shouldn’t delay learning grammar. It is true that you will benefit from having a vocabulary base before getting started on grammar, but wanikani is not the appropriate vocab set for that. Wanikani teaches vocab not based on it’s usefulness in conversation, especially for a beginner, but in terms of how simple the kanji used to write it is. For this reason, early on in wanikani you end up learning tons of nearly useless vocabulary. My advice is look up an N5 and N4 vocab list and use anki to study it.

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I’m pretty sure that Koichi (the creator of this site) recommends you to begin learning grammar once you reach level 10 on wanikani. By that point, you should know enough vocabulary and kanji that any grammar book you pick up will have you focusing solely on grammar, rather than also trying to figure out vocabulary.

Personally, I did WK up to level…hm, around 20 (before I reset) and I have to say, it was really helpful to already know most of the vocabulary in the genki books. When I got toward the end of the second Genki book and began running into some words I didn’t know (or didn’t remember, more like), it became increasingly more frustrating to learn than when I knew everything but the grammar point itself.

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Exactly my feelings on both Youtubers.

I think you’re the first person I see that has a more negative feeling towards Misa. To me she has two main faults: one is that she only uploads beginner videos. After four years, how much beginner stuff is there to cover. The other is the constant cuts on the videos, like every few seconds. This is really annoying and hard to watch. Is she reading a script and memorizing lines? It’s OK to make mistakes, no need to be perfect all the time.

George from Japanese From Zero is really good though. Not only his lessons from the books are awesome, but he also has more advanced stuff, including shows where you learn new vocabulary all the time, like the Japanese Topics Mania. I highly recommend his channel.

Also, I’m in favor of starting grammar right away. I started with the Japanese From Zero book series, thee weeks before starting WK, and eight months later I don’t regret it one bit. It was the right choice. You can start with the first book with zero prior knowledge of Japanese and you’ll do great. He gradually introduces Hiragana and then Katakana and vocabulary in small batches that are going to be used in the following lesson. Kanji is also gradually introduced from book 3 and then book 4. It’s the best approach in my opinion.

Whichever book you choose to start is up to you, but don’t wait. Most Japanese language books are made to introduced the absolute beginner without any previous knowledge of Japanese, so the idea of building vocabulary first doesn’t make any sense. Imagine a house as being the Japanese language: you need a good foundation first so that the house is strong, and only later on you take care of the decoration, which is the vocabulary. You don’t build a house from the roof down…

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Also from the guide:

It’s (finally!) time to start learning grammar. If you followed this guide to the letter, you’re probably 2-4+ months into your Japanese studies.

The problem with Tofugu’s guide is that you can’t understand anything without grammar. What’s the point in learning Japanese for 2-4 months (or any extended amount of time) without being able to understand anything?

If you use a grammar textbook from day one (or close to it) you’ll be learning grammar and vocab all at once. In my experience, you’re more likely to remember something if you’re applying it, and it’s easier to apply what you’re learning when it’s more balanced.

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I feel like you are missing one crucial point in his initial post:

If you’re about to write exams, don’t get started on grammar.
You’ll have no time doing what all of you are advertising: Using it.
Doing WaniKani on the side isn’t all that bad. If you want to do grammar alongside WaniKani, while studying for exams, you’ll have to pretty much slow WaniKani to a halt and/or study very little grammar.

I guess another problem is that I don’t agree with the “start using it as soon as possible” argument anyways.
Using your japanese is important, but building これはペンです sentences isn’t.
In my ideal you’d rush through Genki I(+II?) and start using it with things like Graded Readers or Aoitori Bunko.
I dont get why learning kanji and vocabulary for 3 months without using them in any Japanese would be that bad.
I’d argue it’s even better this way because you can then focus on grammar and start reading things faster instead of being slowed down by having to learn lots of vocab.
(And that’s coming from someone who’s way ahead with his japanese grammar)

I wasn’t ignoring that. I was refuting your assertion that their limited time would be better spent on WaniKani than learning basic grammar. I don’t agree that it’s necessarily “more efficient to focus on kanji until you’re level 10 or even 15”.

Why not? If writing that sentence reinforces the meaning of は and です it seems useful to me. Besides sentences not too different from that contrived example still show up when reading.

From my experience, it’s much easier to look up unknown words than unknown grammar (especially if there’s furigana for the unknown kanji).

Like you, I was ahead on grammar when I started WaniKani. I started WaniKani precisely because I determined that lack of kanji knowledge was the biggest thing stopping me from reading. But that’s why it’s about balance. To progress you have to focus on the area you are most lacking in. Obviously this isn’t absolute; if you’re best at kanji and spend another month on it that’s fine, but eventually learning more kanji and vocab won’t help if you don’t know enough grammar. And the opposite is of course true as well; if you know a ton of grammar and no words, you still won’t be able to read or communicate.

So is it right for the OP to stop and learn grammar right now given their circumstances? Maybe not. But there will come a time when slowing or stopping WaniKani in favor of grammar would be better for them.

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I was trying to say that the time between learning a grammar point and seeing it in the wild would be shorter.
E.g. If you pick up Genki and start reading things after 3 months because you also had to learn vocab, or if you pick up genki and start reading after 1 month because you already knew lots of vocab.

I feel like what we’re discussing is basically one difference:
Is it better to learn vocab and grammar along side each other and use textbooks to reinforce them
or
Is it better to learn vocab in advance, then go through grammar quicker and reinforce it with reading materials for beginners

Personally I feel like both ways have their good and bad sides and I’d like to think that neither is objectively better than the other because it really depends on the situation/person.

I’ll defnitley agree with you there. I guess I should have phrased it a bit less ultimate :stuck_out_tongue:

Why I am so biased towards one is probably because I love reading and dread my genki workbook.

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I just took a look at Tadoku… its the most nensensical webstite I’ve ever seen, impossible to naviagate even when translated. You said you used this??

I agree; it also make the kanji learning process more enjoyable, and slightly easier imo.

Here you go? :o

This is more of philosophical off-topic, but I’m curious. Yes, there’s isn’t one objective best way in every situation and for every person. But if you have one certain situation and one certain person, there pretty much is one objective best way?
Such as, I want to read LNs and I have a lot of free time, and say I have a lot of motivation, too. It would be best for me to study grammar and kanji at the same time as they reinforce each other. And after, say, 2-3 months, I add reading simple things such as NHK Easy along with kanji and grammar study. Right?

If you had full understading of the person (e.g. likings, ideal learning methods, …) and the situation? I feel like most times this would turn into a Cpt. Hindsight kind of thing :o

Given that WaniKani hits the breaks after a given amount of time, starting on grammar obviously get’s you faster towards your “I want to read book x” goal than doing nothing

If I had to start over and choose between

  • 8 days/Level on WaniKani
  • Slowing down WaniKani and also doing grammar (But the same time investment)

I would definitley just focus on WaniKani until im ~ level 15 and then focus on getting through Genki I+II again.

For me the benefit of being able to use my newly learned grammar in the wild faster just outweighs the benefit of reinforcing your vocab earlier.
Maybe I’m weird that way :stuck_out_tongue:

I actually get where you’re coming from. If you’re using textbooks, I would too advise hitting WK lv10-15 before starting one. 'Cause, from my experience, the kanji slowed down my grammar studying immensely, even with lists and/or looking up and/or furigana (useless to me as I don’t know words even in hiragana at that stage).
But as I already mentioned, I solved that problem by not using textbooks in the first place. Videos are useful, but even more than that BunPro + YamiChan. With Yomichan vocabulary is more or less almost trivially easy and fast with it, so I could focus on grammar since lv1 on WK or even before even that.

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