How is it possible?!

The best explanation I’ve seen for the a/e thing is https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/9fkdkd/having_trouble_with_the_distinction_of_下がる_and_下げる/e5x90o0/, of course there are still tons of exceptions, but way less than just a = intransitive and e = transitive from what I’ve seen.

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In almost every word I’ve seen, え is used in the transitive version of the verb (noun acting upon another noun) while あ is used in the intransitive version (noun acting upon itself).

上げる - to raise (something else up)
上がる - to rise (by itself)

下げる - to lower (something else down)
下がる - to get lower (by itself)

There are other patterns as well. I’ve seen a number of verbs where the intransitive version ends in る while the transitive ends in す. Of course there are exceptions to these rules, and then verbs that seem to do whatever they want, but I’ve found these patterns to be very helpful.

Edit:
Suppose I should have read the entire thread first, as plenty of others have already explained this. Oops.

Actually if it ends in す it’s always transitive.

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Oh, I hadn’t realized there were no exceptions there. Great to know, thanks!

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I would call linking 上がる (etc) to the verb ある a huge stretch in terms of actual meaning and etymology, but whatever helps as a mnemonic I guess. Just don’t go believing (or telling anyone) it’s true.

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This is a good site to explain transitivity:

To sum up the three rules from that article:

All verbs ending in す su are transitive verbs. Whether they have an intransitive “pair” or not.

Verbs ending in aru are intransitive

-u →-eru flips transitivity

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(Sorry if this was adequately addressed already, but I’m going to copy/paste a comment I made earlier:)


Verbs that end with ~ある sounds are almost always intransitive, just like ある is intransitive.
Examples:

  • 上がる
  • 下がる
  • 分かる
  • 代わる
  • 止まる
  • 当たる
  • 回る
  • 決まる
  • 助かる
  • 終わる
  • 転がる

Verbs that end with ~す (or ~せる) are almost always transitive, just like する is transitive.
Examples:

  • 出す
  • 正す
  • 写す
  • 申す
  • 足す
  • 直す
  • 回す
  • 思い出す
  • 見直す
  • 話す
  • 欠かす
  • 表す
  • 返す
  • 通す

These are all vocabulary words from the first 10 levels in WK. In those 10 levels, the only exceptions to these trends that I see are (coincidentally both in Level 10):

  • 語る (transitive)
  • 配る (transitive)

Most verb pairs include a word with an ~える sound, like 止める, 当てる, 終える, or 出る for example. These verbs just flip the transitivity of their partner verb.

 

(For anyone who still isn’t sure what the difference between intransitive/transitive is, it’s essentially the difference between “to be [verb] / to [verb] self” versus “to [verb] something.” In Japanese, this means verbs that can take を are transitive, and を marks the “something” that the verb is done to.)

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Honestly I mostly focused on the idea of ~える flipping the transitivity of the paired verb, but I really don’t know anything about etymology at this point, so it’s good to be cautious of.

I don’t understand this transitivity stuff. What is it and how does it help?
I assume one takes a direct object and one doesn’t? How does that help me if I don’t use it anyways?

I like to think of transitive/intransitive as kind of like active vs passive tense in English. transitive verbs are “doing” an action, and intransitive verbs are having an action done (passively).

So if you drop something – 落とすwould be the verb
But if you just let it fall – 落ちる would be the verb

In English we prefer to use the active tense, but I think there is an art to framing things passively in Japanese, so it’s good to get very familiar with using the intransitive version of verbs.

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Damn, just realized it meant nihonjin > japan person. So happy :smiley:

Well, it’s all fine and dandy but it doesn’t help when you have no clue what an intransitive verb is :smiley:
Take to go back to primary school i guess lol

I’m skipping half of the conversation, so that might already have been mentioned, but let’s not forget about
素人
玄人
人気 (ひとけ) That said, that reading and associated meaning aren’t taught on WK, so it’s fine to not think too much about this one. It’s good to know it exists, though. I remember it confused some people when we were reading autumn prison with the intermediate book club: that word appeared without furigana, so you had to rely on context to know it wasn’t にんき.

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Try reading this tofugu article:

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The nin reading is used MANY more times. If you’re curious, you can always look at its WaniKani page, which includes a list of its vocab* with readings (WaniKani / Kanji / 人)

*by “its vocab”, I mean just the vocab taught in WaniKani

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I feel all of your pain. Someone remember the radical 田?
Rice field or rice paddy?

I get it wrong 100% of the time. Then I think, “uh, last time I typed rice paddy for sure, let’s go with rice field this time.” And the other way round. And I get it wrong. Always. I should throw a coin by now.

A lost cause. I will be at level 60 in some years and that damn radical will still be apprentice.

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I meant time*.
Thanks for the link mate i saw it was shared a few comments before. Will read that after the ultimate katakana guide. It seems i can no longer delay it :smiley:

Le jeu. 15 août 2019 à 10:34, Myria via WaniKani Community wanikani_community@discoursemail.com a écrit :

With 下げる and 下がる and other similar differences, the え sound usually seems to indicate that you are influencing something or someone else. the あ sound on the other hand usually seems to indicate that you are influencing yourself.

Hence why 下げる is ‘to lower’ and 下がる is ‘to lower something’

As for the difference between 上 and 下 in these, well the mnemonic I use is a Dutch one. Namely the Dutch word for sinking/lowering is ‘zakken’. That’s how I know that 下 is さ (sa, zakken). I know that won’t really help for others though :open_mouth:

Just add rice field as a synonym :woman_shrugging: that level of detail doesn’t really matter.

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