Would anyone be able to explain this grammar lesson in more depth? What I can glean from it is essentially “X is not Y (because ～のほう came right before Y), so it has to be Z”. I grabbed this from IMABI lesson 12
Here’s a copy and paste of the explanation. Thank you in advance for any help!:
Using ～のほう w/ the Exhaustive-Listing Function of が
The structure ～のほう (literally meaning “side (of a comparison)”) attaches to the subject marked by the exhaustive-listing が when the statement itself must be made with the canceled-out options in the speaker’s mind invoked indirectly to make the statement both absolute and clear to the listener.
新幹線のほうが早い。 The bullet train is the (means which is the) fast one.
Incidentally, the Y in the pattern XがY can be replaced by [Y’がZ]. This results in the sentence having two nouns marked by が. However, these two nouns must never hold the exact same function. This Xが[Y’がZ] pattern can be broken down as…
Xが [Y’が Z], where:
X = The main subject of the sentence.
Y‘ = The auxiliary subject that relates to Z.
Z = The predicate describing an attribute of Y.
In this arrangement, Y‘ is ancillary to X by nature, meaning it serves as a supporting detail within the broader statement about X, but is directly related to Z. Meanwhile [Y’がZ] as a whole constitutes Y, the predicate of X.
この魚のほうが歯応えが弱い。
Literally: This fish is whose texture is weaker.
This fish has the weaker texture.
That seems like a weird way to approach this sentence pattern. I think the more usual way is to treat this as part of comparisons, where the “full” pattern is something like:
車より電車のほうが速い
(literally, “more than the car, the train is fast”). But as usual with Japanese you don’t have to explicitly state all the clauses. So if you’re already talking about how your friend would be better off taking the train you can say
車より速い “it’s faster than (going by) car”
Or if your friend just said “I’m planning to take the car” so you’re already implicitly talking cars then
電車のほうが速い “the train is faster”
If this source’s grammar explanations are all like this, consider finding something else or at least supplementing with a second source…
This 100%. If you’re learning this stuff for the first time, I suggest looking elsewhere, and coming back to Imabi at times when you have the basics and want to see more / other approaches on it. I appreciate that the site is really detailed and precise, there’s a place for that absolutely, but I know what the Japanese sentences here mean and even going in with that knowledge, reading this is so exhausting.
Thanks, guys And thanks especially to pm215 for writing all that out. It definitely makes more sense now. I’ll be writing it down in my lesson notebook!
I do like IMABI because it’s so thorough and offers a huge load of lessons, but the way things are worded can get tricky, as you saw above. I’m considering switching to Genki and making IMABI a secondary source at this point. What do you guys personally use for grammar study? Prior to this I was using Tae Kim’s Guide, but I started seeing some negative opinions online stating that his explanations weren’t thorough enough, and I started to sense that myself while reading his book. I also tried BunPro, but the SRS study system wasn’t really my style for grammar study. All that said, I turned to IMABI’s thorough textbook-like study format. Detailed explanations are where it’s at for me!
I used Genki 1 and 2, and looking back I would definitely quibble with elements of what they taught when, how they taught a few things, what they excluded… but fundamentally, they served me just fine. And personally my feelings are that anything that helps you get a baseline understanding can work as long as you yourself vibe with its presentation. Which means every decently reputable grammar source can work for someone. I haven’t really used Tae Kim’s Guide personally to have opinions on it, but I know people have used it and they came out able to learn Japanese. Personally the approach that worked for me, and that I’ve seen most people have success with, is to accept that beginner grammar resources will often prioritize oversimplification and generalization and sometimes be not totally correct to just help you get your foot in the door. My expectation is that the complaints about Tae Kim could stem from that. The way it usually works is you learn enough to have a way to cope with the grammar when coming across it in further study, and over time you get a more accurate, refined understanding, but trying to do that at the beginning may just overwhelm. Your milage may vary since you mention wanting a lot of detail, just my thoughts, in part because getting too perfectionist in the beginning stages is commonly a trap for a lot of people that ends up holding them back.
That said, this is not at all structured to learn from as a first resource (it’s all alphabetical, more of a grammar reference guide), but as something else to refer to you may also like the series A Dictionary of Japanese Grammar? Tofugu reviewed them here, for instance: A Dictionary of Japanese Grammar - The Tofugu Review
I find these books to give a more thorough understanding the way Imabi would but personally far prefer the way they’re written. Not necessary, but you might like them!
I agree. It’s all about getting that basic understanding and just refining that over time and further study. Perfection shouldn’t be the goal, as tempting as it is. I’ll keep working at it and see what happens. Thank you for the link to the dictionaries! Those will be a great resource in the future, and especially like that they’re in print. Keeps me from being glued to screen more than I need to!
Yeah, I learned from textbooks (and in a classroom environment) for the basic structure/ordering and to give me the first pass understanding of sentence patterns, with those Dictionaries as my secondary reference to look something up if it wasn’t making sense to me or I wanted a different perspective from what the textbooks were saying.
Imabi is a bit TOO thorough imho if you’re just learning the basics. Check out Renshuu (free), menu resources - Japanese Lessons. Things like this grammar point are very clearly explained there.