Oh on that note we are literally collecting pictures to show us spending past holidays together, being with each otherās families, etc, haha. Yeah Iām honestly unsure cause the lawyer has given us a huge list of stuff but weāre kind of just submitting everything we can right now and then waiting to see if they think what we have is sufficient or not. I know our lawyer said they wouldnāt bother submitting without a few specific ones like joint bank accounts, but otherwise, who knows.
I know exactly what you mean, though in my experience I feel like the kind of grammar I learned via Satori (and now VNs and books) is stuff I rarely or never come across in manga. To be fair, I havenāt really explored āharder mangaā so Iām sure it converges a little, but I think there truly is a wide gulf between your standard written Japanese and (pseudo) conversational so they might overlap less than youād think. But yeah I read close to all of their stories at the time I did it and can vouch that I was able to go right into books, so itāll guide you nicely if you do indeed go through it.
Good to know, where do VNs fall on that spectrum? Since I might be spending some time reading those as well going forward.
I donāt even know if it qualifies as āharder mangaā but I bought all of ē«ć®é³„ together with the first three volumes of Hunter x Hunter (just to get a better proportion of shipping to product price, and since I was planning to read it eventually) and it sometimes just breaks up the comic book parts with a few pages of text before the pictures return:p While I didnāt attempt to read any of them yet I get the impression it wonāt be pseudo conversational, but more like how in some novels the narrator will āinterruptā the main narrative with longer asides, commentary, or concluding remarks. In terms of overlap though Iām trusting that Bunpro will cover both sides as I progress there.
How long did that take you, just to get an idea of the scale of the task before I decide how/when to approach it. I know there are about 1000 āchaptersā but theyāre almost like paragraphs iirc
They certainly can vary, but generally I feel like the writing is close enough to being novel-like with some descriptive prose or space dedicated to the protagonistās thoughts. Perhaps on the easier novel side overall since theyāll necessarily be recent-ish and many arenāt trying to show off their fancy writing TOO hard, but there are certainly exceptions known for being hard. Thereās definitely more goofy conversational stuff too than Iāve come across in my books so far, with more colorful role language which might lean in the manga direction. Generally people find the dialog the relatively easy part though, so Iād say the other is what you have to focus more on.
Otherwise the issues are subject matter specific. Thereās plenty of slice of life type stuff, but a lot of VNs get into weird topics, rambly and philosophical, very chuuni, etc. All that is going to raise the difficulty purely through less common domains and, at least sometimes, content that is in itself aiming to be dense independent of the language issues.
If we want to trust Natively, that stuff ranks pretty much the same as the easier books Iāve read! Not that I think cross-medium comparisons especially are particularly useful there, but I can say theyāre certainly harder manga than I read. I mostly used manga chosen for being easy as my stepping stone because more of my interest was in VNs and novels, but I want to go back and explore more eventually. Going to be the only Japanese learner who uses learning Japanese to get into manga and not the other way around
I guess to expand on the difference, what I mean is reading more prose writing (compared to my experience in easier manga only, caveat) has longer sentences you have to build the ability to comprehend, and lots of those fancier N1 and N2 grammar points show up far more often. Honestly most of those points arenāt āhard,ā just another thing to remember. Depending on the work the particular descriptive words might be more rare and unusual. But having recently read Azumanga Daioh for a brief trip back to manga, I found while my overall understanding is so much better, manga can still pose unique challenges. Sometimes the brevity was actually the hard point, where my lack of a clear understanding of exactly what a verb does and does not mean introduced ambiguity that more words in another medium would have probably cleared up. Slang and the like is obvious enough too, etc.
I dug back through this topic and see I first mentioned using it in August, then in November I stopped. I remember I stopped Secret early because I stumbled onto Ace Attorney videos and went āwait I think I can read this nowā and just ran off to do that. I usually tried to read about 4 of them per day. They didnāt have Fujiki or The Jam Maker at the time, and I chose to skip Akiko because it was so long. Those aside, I read pretty much everything (well in series with 2 difficulty I chose one based on what I wanted at the time and just did that).
When I was applying for the student visa to Japan, I had to add a few sentences explaining why I had a gap between my 1-month Japanese school study a few years earlier and my now 1-year visa I wanted to get. That was my Japanese language school just wanting to make sure the Japanese government wouldnāt potentially ask for complementary stuff because of that. It felt very weird because the answer was basically: I didnāt want that at the time? xD But I wrote some lines together about how Iād been too busy with other things to go for a year then.
Bureaucracy/visa-applications/immigration is so much about digging up info you never thought youād ever need for any reason, bullshitting, and then some genuine āthis seems legitā things.
Maybe one of a few, Iāve talked to some people who were reading manga for the first time because they were studying Japanese and they seemed to like it:) Personally I used to read manga, stoped for over a decade, and got back into it after deciding to learn Japanese (with my motivation for learning mainly being a weird sense almost of claustrophobia from being merely bilingual in a world of 7000+ languagesš).
I almost wanted to ask 4 episodes or 4 whole stories, but based on what you said you read and how long you spent I see that the math adds up for episodes:p I think Iāll try for 10+ per day and see how that feels.
Nice, good luck! Yeah itās possible youāll see quicker results than me. I had been doing graded readers the whole time and a little manga prior, but I was still quite new to reading overall when I started Satori. Basically went through both Genki volumes then used Satori Reader as my next major learning tool immediately after. Was also figuring out sentence mining to Anki at the same time, started it with Satori.
Donāt worry, Iām very much on track to be in this same boat, haha. I have a list of manga I want to read that Iāve more or less set aside until next year, wanting my Japanese to be better before I attempt them. Yotsuba in particular, Iām actually saving, since I love the manga in English, and want to be able to properly read the volumes I never got around to reading in English. A little bit backwards there, compared to other learners .
For me, itās largely a question of time. I have to prioritize the TJPW translations, so that takes up the vast majority of my reading time and energy, and whatever I have to spare, Iām trying to put that into actively studying grammar. But as my Japanese improves, I get faster at translating, and also eventually I wonāt have to spend as much time studying kanji or grammar. Ideally, that saved time will eventually become manga reading time, haha.
Honestly, I can already tell that translating wrestling stuff is going to give me a huge leg up with the manga, because itās a lot of very colloquial Japanese. But Iād be much more hopeless if I didnāt have substantial translation help on it, haha. We sort of have a mini year-round book (and listening) club going in the pro wrestling thread for Tokyo Joshi Pro Wrestling .
With more literary/formal writing, Iāve actually gotten a bit of that with wrestling, at least reading articles/recaps about it, but Iām sure thereās loads of grammar thatās more common in novels than articles, and vice versa. Novels are currently my lowest priority, so it might take me a full additional year before I get around to really diving in there, depending on how fast Iām able to get through my manga backlog.
Oh yeah, I forget if Iāve ever said it to you, but your whole wrestling translation project youāve been leaning into is really cool! Iām very impressed at you putting that stuff out there. I know you have help, make it clear youāre still learning and not authoritative, etc, but I donāt know how many years from now it would take before I got the confidence to do that sort of work, haha. I doubt Iāll ever actually do translation specifically. Who knows what might happen, though.
Yeah itās interesting and kinda cool how people go off on their own paths like that. I noticed the mock N2 JLPT was annoying for me because itās all essay/article style reading specifically. Iāve had no real purpose for that and donāt immediately see that happening beyond the occasional times Iām looking something up that needs to be searched in Japanese and come across online articles on it. For what itās worth, I felt like VNs and novels prepared me pretty thoroughly for that grammatically but not at all in vocabulary. Dunno how representative that truly is, though.
Though Iām mostly just immersion and SRS now, your time paragraph is still hugely relatable for simply finding the ability to squeeze in more reading. My wife sometimes wants to pick up the same books Iāve been reading (English versions for her), and did so with ć³ć³ććäŗŗé. After feeling good about being around 20% at the time, she read for an hour or something and caught up with me. Long way to go
You just need to get really into something that has a lot of annoying twitter discourse that you ultimately get completely sick of, until your annoyance outweighs your lack of confidence .
Honestly, though, since I started making the translations public, Iāve actually regretted not doing it sooner. It definitely adds more motivation for me to get them done, and you get that satisfying rush of seeing the likes and retweets go up, haha.
Iāve also felt a bit guilty, like I was hoarding information that I could have shared with other people, even though itās imperfect. Iāve certainly read plenty of worse quality fan translations than the ones Iāve put out there (especially since I have significant help with them, so Iām punching pretty far above my weight). Iāve seen other fans basically following the stories by machine translating the shupro transcripts, so my competition is basically just DeepL here (for fans that bother to go even that farā¦), and as imperfect as my translations are, they are definitely better than that.
And with wrestling, since so much of it is, well, time-sensitive, you donāt have to worry as much about your older work being worse quality, because for the most part, people will just read the new stuff and not go back to read translations for past shows. Itās a weirdly forgiving environment for a language learner, whereas if I translated like a book or manga or something, thereād be a lot more pressure to have quality translation all throughout instead of basically using it as an ongoing learning tool.
Itās definitely a case where I basically created the twitter account that I wish I could be following rather than running, but, well, no one else was making it, so here I am . I do feel like the world is better off for it existing, though, and that helps keep me going.
Yeah, the vocab would definitely be my weakness, too, because I donāt think wrestling vocab would really help me out a lot here, haha. Though I have picked up some formal covid-related vocab through wrestling, though Iām not sure how much that would even show up on the test . Iād actually probably benefit from reading proper Japanese news, honestly, because major news items do come up in wrestling occasionally. I think itās important cultural context at the very least.
Actually, I just watched a DDT match that featured two actual politicians, haha. I wondered a bit about what their actual politics were like (though neither of them were very major politicians) and considered trying to look it up, then decided that even if I could read articles about it, I wasnāt sure that I actually wanted to knowā¦
Well, thereās been a whole lot of emotions and things crashing into each other. I guess thatās how life goes. The worst of it are a few complications in the application for my wifeās immigration ā I think we can manage, but there are parts that are a little difficult to get our hands on, which felt particularly scary. Itās funny how often everyone I know, or my momās friends, or anyone, has no idea how hard immigration is. They pretty much have all assumed we just get married and sheās immediately allowed to stay here indefinitely now. Given the rural midwest area I live in, no doubt some of these same people think immigration is too easy .
Iām still very much dealing with arm/etc pain too, not sure I see any improvement there. I finally have insurance (though I may be losing it sometime next yearā¦) so Iām going to see a doctor in about a week to find out what they have to offer. Not at all getting my hopes up, but itās worth a try.
Iām really ramping up my excitement for Splatoon 3 after getting a taste of it in that free demo day, too. Itās been a long time since Iāve had something like this I was looking forward to so much (yāknow barring the wedding but Iām kinda separating that out from the release of videogames and stuff haha), which is cool but also annoying in how impatient Iām getting.
I also briefly mentioned that horror movie event before. Well, the criteria for picks came out, and here is the list my wife and I intend to watch, all first time watches for us: Letterboxd Hooptober list . Just in case anyone is into horror / movies in general or anything and is curious. Thereās my Letterboxd profile too so you can see the pseudointellectual attempts at reviewing Iāve made .
Pretty much every part of this has led to me, either through stress or through distraction, dropping what I do in Japanese somewhat. Iām still managing my daily reviews and reading some, though the latter has been bare minimum. At this rate I expect to be reading Flowers for ages. Iām at least pretty far into ć³ć³ććäŗŗé, and still loving it. Thinking Iāll read another by this author next. And Iāve made decent progress into level 56 on WK, so the end remains in sight.
Thatās more or less it, Iām just kind of adjusting to this being a waning period in how much time I spend on Japanese (though itās definitely still in total probably a couple hours per day) and allowing myself to have that while trying to not feel too bad about moving through things really slowly. With all the coming distractions, itās only going to get worse, so it unfortunately it is definitely not a good for me to think about adding anything else.
You seem to have a lot going on right now. I feel that a lot. The last couple of weeks, honestly a lot of August felt like that for me (whether I had as much going on as my mind tried to tell me I had or not). I barely read any Japanese and only kept up with WK and the forum (I donāt have a spouse to fulfill my social needs with :3 ).
Iāve really hated periods like this in the past. Where it feels like any forward progress is sluggish and nothing seems to actually come to fruition. But Iāve also learned that the way I feel tends to change after a while. Perhaps something actually get finished and dominos start to fall because I was trudging through the middle of multiple projects that then mostly finished all together (which comes with its own problem of having to start many things at once after instead ).
I feel like I went off on a tangent somewhere there. All I wanted to say was that I feel you and that I hope this is a fleeting period. That things that are weighing on you will either finish or at least let up on the emotional heaviness scale. I know that when I have such life changing things as immigration hanging in the balance, it is hard to pull focus away. And that is natural, isnāt it? This is something thatāll define your lives, or at least where you live. And worrying about shelter is one of the basic needs of life.
So hopefully when that gets sorted in your wifeās favor (Iām rooting for you! (closest thing I could find to a cheerleaderā¦)), itāll open up mental-emotional space.
I appreciate all that! Just wanted to ramble in this direction because itās such a huge thing and has been forā¦ 1/3 of my life basically? I mean weāve been dating in some capacity for like 11 years now. As nice as getting married is itās hard to really feel it the way I want to because itās also consumed as a step in the whole immigration process, which itās hard not to be at least slightly frustrated about. The idea of marrying someone being that you then (at least intend) to stay with that personā¦ thereās not so much real weight to that in the way that there is for more standard weddings without all this. If we werenāt moving ahead in the process theyād boot her out of the country sometime next year so we canāt get āstuck togetherā haha.
But anyway itās been such an enormous thing for so long that I hardly ever stop to truly consider what itāll be like when thatās finally over. For a while it was a very long distance relationship so itās gotten so much better than it used to be. The idea of one of us truly immigrating was always such a far off hypothetical thing that even when weāre collecting the documents to submit it I donāt think I can conceptualize it as being that real yet. Itās hard to imagine the level of relief that should eventually bring. Unfortunately, it sounds like even after we file itās likely to take a couple years to get approved. After a certain point itās just waiting rather than actually doing anything, but the proper relief period is annoyingly far away even now.
I donāt know how much Iāve mentioned it here on the forum, but I spent a couple of years traveling the world trying to find a country that felt like home, because I didnāt feel at home in Sweden (at the time). So I traveled around to several places, usually staying for 1-3 months and I learned 3 things (about myself I guess):
Any place can feel like home, that it is more a state of being (emotional being perhaps) than a physical place. Although there are certain features that make me happier/more comfortable that I can use to get to that feeling.
Immigration is a lot of bureaucracy to go through for vaguely feeling more at home in a place
Maybe I liked Sweden better than I thought
Now here I am, living in northern Sweden (instead of middle/south Sweden) and Iām happier in this place than I can remember being in a place except maybe the year I spent on Gotland (an island in the Baltic sea, part of Sweden). I was also pretty happy in one place during my travels which had to do with proximity to the ocean and good friends. Coincidentally I live close to good friends now too. (And not that far from the sea but I actually havenāt visited it even once despite living here for 1,5 year. )
The point with this story is that things are variable. I think. Maybe you have a better idea of why I told it than I do.
I think when youāve turned in all the papers and done everything you can do, some calm can come. The possibility is there. I know for me it would, a kind of the peace of āIāve done all I can, now it isnāt in my hands anymoreā. Although I donāt think it would arrive instantly. Sometimes we have to marinate in that realization for a while.
Instead perhaps itāll be important to celebrate the filing. Not necessarily with family (if they think it means itās a done deal that doesnāt help!), but with your wife. A way of affirming that youāve done this thing. Done what you can. Your cards are on the table and now you can just hope itāll be enough, but no longer is it up to you. So celebrate youāve done the step, help your lizard brain realize its done as far as your actions go (at least that is how Iāve read what you said).
Emotions are emotions are emotions. But we can always guide ourselves in what we want to feel, whether they will follow or not only they can tell. If nothing else you can celebrate that you donāt have to search for more documentation? If all the other reasons for it doesnāt ring true or feel right.
Now, I definitely feel like Iām throwing mud on the wall. Iāll see myself out of this particular post.
PS. If anything is confusing or so, I blame it on the wine. Iāve had exactly two glasses so shouldnāt make a difference, but Iāll hedge my bets. xD
All this bureaucracy stuff is really painful, no matter what and where I guess I hope you can get it somewhat sorted soon, and if it then takes a couple years to be processed, I hope that this will not affect your lives too much going forward. (At least she wonāt be kicked out while this process is ongoing, is my understanding?) So while it would of course be great if everything was finished and legal, if it can take you to a state where you can live relatively peacefully and with low stress, thatās already a win for you, I hope.
Just a quick word of warning: This book is really the big outlier when it comes to the works of this author. It is very, very different from her other books (Iāve read one short story collection and two other novels on top of Konbini Ningen). I mean, of course that shouldnāt keep you from reading her books, I just wanted to warn you that you wonāt find what youāre looking for if youāre aiming at a book similar to Konbini Ningen, contents-wise. (In that case I would rather recommend Hakase which is also easy to read, and I found it quite similar in terms of the general feel.) The only thing that remains the same in my opinion is the ease with which one can read her books. Thatās truly a feature in and of itself.
Iām sure you know that there is the Murata Sayaka book club, so you can get some inspiration and recommendations there if you like, or just hop in straight away!
@MissDagger Yeah I think all of that is true and it helps to read it laid out that way, but is also at least what Iām attempting to learn to do better? Heh. Thanks for all your advice. Just, the full eventual relief assuming it works out is truly something on another level when itās all over, though Iāll do what I can manage to find good things on the way there.
Yep! That part is still very good news to us. She should get approved relatively quickly once we file everything to stay on a tentative basis until the final decisions get made. So thatās of course great. And honestly the more I hear about what you have to do for certain processes in other countries (even getting a copy of her full birth certificate from Canada requires some truly ridiculous things), I can honestly appreciate that no matter how much I hate the USās bureaucracy, we probably have it relatively easy compared to many other countries.
Much appreciated, though I do have at least a general idea of what her other writing sounds like it goes into and, honestly, I have a high tolerance for unpleasant things in art and enjoy oddities so in my limited knowledge the others sound even more appealing. Itās half for the writing style and also half for what I perceive (also based on an interview I read) to be her general worldview and the sort of themes sheād write about.
Oh yeah I did not want to imply that you might not be able to handle it I figured as much from your mentions of various movies and such. I just wanted to warn you a bit in case you were looking for āmore of the sameā and had no idea how different her other books are. But as I see, youāre perfectly prepared
BTW Iām looking forward to reading your thoughts here or in the book club threads if you pick one that Iāve read as well!
Honestly I wish Iād told someone how very distracted and unfocused I was after I applied for my student visa to Japan. Only now (partly due to this conversation) did I fully realize why I got so little done for the few months I was waiting.
I donāt want to make things worse, but for me, there was very dual feelings after I turned in my application. Both a peace of I canāt do any more, and the helplessness in knowing that I could literally do nothing to sway the decision, it was fully out of my hands and someone else would get to decide if I could go or not. But I guess, it might be better to be forewarned, at least that is how it is for me. Forewarned, forearmed. If that isnāt a saying it should be.
Basically I guess it is possible for it to go either way and fluctuate between those two states. If you can pick at all, Iād suggest going with peace, and while that seems obvious, I donāt know how many times Iāve picked the more miserable option just because it is supposed to feel that way, right? Except, not ārightā, there is no right or wrong. And there is nothing wrong with feeling the helplessness, there is also nothing wrong with āwelp, Iāve done what I canā and let it go at that.
If Iād been as aware back then (only a few years but still) as I am now. I would have used every tool in my emotional toolbox to let it go. When action is out of my hands, it is out of my hands. All I can do is plan/be aware of alternatives that I can spring into action or rather deep dive research if things doesnāt go as planned. However, if your lawyer is good I expect youāll only file once you have enough that acceptance is the most likely outcome (not sure how variable immigration bureaucracy is in the US).
So ehmmā¦ I hope awareness and someone elseās experience helps you. And I feel like Iām being very apologetic tonight.
In book news, I look forward to seeing what you think of ć³ć³ććäŗŗé, and even more to what you guys have been talking about in the Loopers threads.
This is unrelated, right? äŗŗéå¤±ę ¼ is by Dazai Osamu, as you probably know. But I heard that Ranpo (at least his books geared towards adults) is kinda similar in difficulty, as heās from the same era. He also wrote childrenās stories but I donāt know how interesting they are.