(The increasingly less) Daily senryu thread

I actually really like rules and constraints for this sort of thing because it makes them into sort of a puzzle to try to solve, and I think it sort of recreates some of the conditions that the original was written under. But the rules being inconsistent is I think just a particular kind of hell for an autistic person :sweat_smile:.

Honestly, I feel like probably the best way to do it would be to have a bilingual native speaker who isn’t participating in the thread choose the best translation. It feels like we just need an impartial judge, I guess. It’s inevitably going to be a little arbitrary, but I’d trust a native speaker’s impulse on which one seemed to capture the original the best. I feel like the results might surprise us.

With poetry, I think sometimes a most direct translation is not the best choice, since often the meaning is captured better by going a little bit outside the bounds of the original. At least, I’ve started to take small creative liberties with my wrestling translations, and I can already tell that they’ve improved a lot in terms of capturing the actual feel of what the characters are saying. Just simple things like switching out Japanese phrases for equivalent common phrases in English, or sometimes not translating a けど as “but” if it makes the English read awkwardly, etc. Often the better choice seems to be to reword things to get around clunky wording that is technically correct but sounds odd. But I favor senryu translations that read smoothly maybe more than others do, so maybe it’s not actually a real concern.

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I’m a fellow autist, maybe that’s part of the problem, if both you and I are having similar feelings. I still stand behind that we should find a way to be proud of our own translations though, regardless of whether they are “picked.” I also personally disagree with the idea that they have to contain the direct translations of the words, but the reasoning behind that was clearly explained by Rex and I understand his decision even if I would make a different one.

But, this is not our thread and it also really doesn’t matter either way. This is just the internet.

So I have a proposal, you and me @fallynleaf, as a way to put behind the artificial rules and find joy in our translations:
How about you and I translate all the senryuu this week, and we each submit our translation. Then, we will tell each other what we think were the good points of each other’s translations, and talk about why we made our choices, if we made different choices than each other. And we won’t look at any criteria, we just discuss how we translated it and why. I will hype you up endlessly, and maybe you could do the same for me, and then we will feel great about it all again.

What do you think?

Edited to add: you said you really liked the rules as part of the puzzle. If you tell me what rules you are choosing to follow, I’m game! I may not choose to follow the same ones, although if my translations inspire you to redo what I said in a 3-4-3 or whatever, more power to us both!

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Thanks for weighing in! I think this was an important conversation to have, because I want people like us to be able to keep participating!

Unfortunately, I don’t think I can commit to translating all of the senryu in any given week. I usually only sporadically have the time to do them, and sometimes they’re too hard for me, or I don’t feel confident, so I’ll choose to skip one. I’d love to see your attempts, though! And I bet others in the thread would also enjoy them :blush:.

If the sense of competition is the main issue, if you just do them all technically a day late, you might have an easier time, since that way, you don’t have to feel competitive? Or you could translate them ahead of time when everyone else is working on theirs, and only share them after the deadline has passed. That way, there’d be way less pressure.

My problem is that the deadline every day helps me, and I also enjoy participating along with everyone else, so I feel simultaneously drawn to want to participate, but then also discouraged because of the reasons discussed earlier. It’s possible that this is a case where there isn’t a real solution :sweat_smile:.

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Well i will try to pay attention each day and hype you up when you submit one. We’ve gotta support each other, right?

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I’ll try to do the same for yours as well! :blush:

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Monday, July 25, 2022


Previous senryu

  1. 「ありがとう」 そのひとことが 潤滑油
    ありがとう・そのひとことが・じゅんかつゆ
    “Thank you” — that one / phrase acts as social / lubrication

Notes:

  • I found it interesting that the struggle today seemed to be adding enough English syllables (we even had a seven syllable submission!). Usually it’s the other way around. 「ありがとう」 そのひとことが is eleven 音, but can be expressed in just four English syllables (“‘thanks’ that one word”).

  • No more winners going forward as we seem to have unintentionally made people feel like losers. I would like to keep track of the participants though. I want to thank everyone on the credit screen of the userscript I plan to create once we have at least ~100 translations. I’ll do my best to keep track, but please help me recognize any newcomers.

Current senryu challenge

Volume: Life in one page

  1. 湯の旅の疲れをいやす家の風呂

This one seems quite poetic! Hopefully we will see some creative submissions: “direct translations preferred” doesn’t mean there isn’t opportunity for creative word choices!


Remember to please use the spoiler tag with your translation attempts! Also, please include the reading in kana with your submission.

Everyone is encouraged to participate, no matter your level! Questions and comments are every bit as welcome as actual translation submissions.

Please try not to be disappointed if your translation isn’t selected or if you disagree with the daily choice: the judge isn’t terribly consistent with his grading (and has awful taste!).

Online tools like dictionaries, sentence databases, and even AI translation engines are fair game and can be extremely helpful. Yomichan is particularly handy if you use the Chrome or Firefox browser. The 語源(ごげん)由来(ゆらい)辞典(じてん) is also an excellent resource for researching the etymology of various words and expressions.

Here are the links to the 356 Japanese originals (spoiler free) and to the the spreadsheet with all the upcoming senryu as well as the translations to date.

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Since I already started working on a translation, I might as well post it. I don’t think I managed to capture the nuance, but it’s a start.

ゆのたびの つかれをいやす いえのふろ

tiring spa trip –
to relax, I take
a bath at home

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Administrivia and the mythical senryu dashboard script

One thing that I’ve neglected to mention before:

For readability, it would be great if the translation submissions had the readings written with furigana rather than a separate line of kana. Furigana is written in HTML using the <ruby> markup element — easily created on these forums with the excellent IME2Furigana user script. Several submissions have done this, and while it’s appreciated, it’s actually caused me slightly more daily work.

Unfortunately, Google spreadsheets won’t display <ruby> markup correctly. Worse, when I cut and paste Japanese text with furigana it removes all the markup and just puts the kana immediately after the kanji (without html tags or even the IME2Furigana notation).

So until I figure out something better, I’d prefer submissions with just a kana-only line for the reading. For example:

離婚後も同居続けるへんな仲
りこんごもどうきょつづけるへんななか
divorced but still / living together. / odd dynamic


Notes about the eventual script

What I’d REALLY like, though, is a column in the spreadsheet using IME2Furigana notation. Something like this:

<離婚後>{りこんご}も<同居続>{どうきょつづ}けるへんな<仲>{なか}

Then in the app it would render in the eventual dashboard script like this:

離婚(りこん)()同居(どうきょ)(つづ)けるへんな(なか)

(where you have to click on the furigana to see it).

But that’s an utter PITA to type, so for the time being just continue to submit plain kana if you don’t mind (I had to escape every angle bracket and curly brace with a preceding backslash).

I’m envisioning that the script will contain a hard-coded “database” that’s just a line of text for each senryu, with the original in IME2Furigana “spoiler” notation and the English translation delimited somehow.

The script will then create the blurred furigana using <ruby> tags, implement click-to-unblur, and add a button to show the English translation.

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Ah! Thanks for posting quickly, you helped me catch my misunderstanding.

I thought the ()(たび) was the trip to the bath at home, but it makes MUCH more sense as a senryu with your interpretation. The bath at home is to recover from the exhausting trip to the hot spring!

I love it.


With @Myria 's assist, here’s my attempt:

湯の旅の疲れをいやす家の風呂

ゆのたびの・つかれをいやす・いえのふろ

recovery
from grueling spa trip:
a bath at home

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湯の旅の疲れをいやす家の風呂

ゆのたびの つかれをいやす いえのふろ
Cure for the / hot-spring-trip’s fatigue: / Home’s hot tub.

3-5-3. Learned that 家の風 (いえのかぜ) = family tradition. I suppose that is what an お風呂 is for the Japanese family. 日本で家の風呂は家の風ですよ。

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Tuesday, July 26, 2022


Previous senryu

  1. 湯の旅の疲れをいやす家の風呂
    ゆのたびの・つかれをいやす・いえのふろ
    Cure for the / hot-spring-trip’s fatigue: / Home’s hot tub.

Notes:

The key to this one was realizing that 湯の旅 meant a trip to hot water, i.e. a trip to an onsen or hot spring most likely!

@LaVieQ pointed out something interesting that was new to me: 「(いえ)(かぜ)」 means “family tradition.” It seems likely that this is why お風呂(ふろ) contains the character for “wind.”

Current senryu challenge

Volume: Husbands

  1. 晴天がやけに空しい月曜日

Welp. This one has me completely mystified.

I always find it kind of delightful when I’m able to guess the meaning of a 塾語(じゅくご) like 青天(せいてん) while being far less certain of the reading. Usually it’s the other way around.

Still, I’m totally unsure of the meaning. Maybe it’s just that Monday’s are supposed to be cloudy and gloomy? But why an “awfully empty Monday”?


Remember to please use the spoiler tag with your translation attempts! Also, please include the reading in kana with your submission.

Everyone is encouraged to participate, no matter your level! Questions and comments are as valued as translation submissions.

Please try not to be disappointed if your translation isn’t selected or if you disagree with the daily choice: the judge isn’t terribly consistent with his grading (and has awful taste!).
Online tools like dictionaries, sentence databases, and even AI translation engines are fair game and can be extremely helpful. Yomichan is particularly handy if you use the Chrome or Firefox browser. The 語源(ごげん)由来(ゆらい)辞典(じてん) is also an excellent resource for researching the etymology of various words and expressions.

Here are the links to the 356 Japanese originals (spoiler free) and to the the spreadsheet with all the upcoming senryu as well as the translations to date.

1 Like

せいてんが やけにむなしい げつようび

blue skies / all in vain / Monday

That is, the beautiful weather is meaningless and wasted, because the author has to go to work :slight_smile: NB that in the original it is not the 月曜日 which is 空しい but the 晴天 – the whole of 晴天がやけに空しい is a relative clause, I think.

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せいてんがやけにむなしいげつようび

what a waste
the skies are so clear
on monday

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And a 3-5-3! I think “what a waste” captures the vibe of the “awfully empty” really well.

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Thanks! I considered using the phrase “awful shame” at first, because I wanted to capture “awfully” somehow, but it just didn’t quite have the right connotation. Alas!

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せいてんがやけにむなしいげつようび

clear skies are
extremely pointless
on Monday

another idea:
Monday’s blue skies: all in vain

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to add onto previous discussions, I only post when I have time to and when I feel inspired by my own particular translation. (also sometimes I’m not confident I understand how to translate the senryuu to begin with). I personally didn’t mind the little shout-outs, but I can see how they would be bothersome for others.

I understand the desire to try to capture all the nuances of the Japanese original, but as people have previously stated, translation really is an art. Not to mention that poetry is also subjective. Sometimes a directly-translated thing doesn’t sound as poetic, simply because Japanese and English present ideas in a different manner. I have definitely run into this problem whilst translating my peers’ work into English: you want to capture the original nuance, but also make it sound natural in English (to a certain extent). The other day I literally spent an entire hour translating one sentence! :sob: (in my defence it was a long sentence) Anway, it’s all quite complicated, but i’ve really enjoyed this thread’s attempts at creating stuff together.

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晴天がやけに空しい月曜日

せいてんが やけにむなしい げつようび

Fine, clear sky
on Monday. Feels
so futile.

3-4-3.
Is it because one is inside, working away on such a fine day? Makes sense, particularly after a rainy/snowy weekend. Can’t think of any other explanation…

I thought of using “empty” for 空しい but “futile” gives a sense of the tragedy of not being out and about :face_in_clouds:.

Don’t understand why this is under the “husbands” category.

EDIT: After reading the submissions from @pm215 , @fallynleaf, @tiredkiwi, I can see that the “Feels so futile” in my translation erroneously attributes that feeling to the author, as opposed to the sense that the clear skies are wasted on a Monday.

That made me curious and I looked up 風呂 in the 語源由来辞典 and it enumerates a few theories around the word’s origin. Alas, none of them accord with the 風 in 家の風 as a possible starting point. :neutral_face: :face_with_raised_eyebrow: Darn!

But, then, that entry led me to the very interesting phenomenon of ジャングル風呂!!. “Ya Mon! Jungle Bath!!” A rather obscure Japanese 家の風, as the wiki entry says. :smile:

Interesting rabbit hole.

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I’ve not explained terribly well why I’m (now) emphasizing more direct translations.

My goal with this thread was expressly to create a user script for the WK dashboard. The script will be for Wanikani users to practice their Japanese reading.

We all seem to enjoy the reading of the originals and the translation process itself as much as the end result. I know my reading has improved noticeably since this thread started, simply due to daily practice with such varied content.

If the thread aimed to publish a list English senryu based on the Japanese originals, I’d judge things entirely differently!

In other words, the goal is for people to be able to read and enjoy the Japanese originals, not the English versions on their own. I’ve intentionally de-valued natural sounding and “poetic” English in favor of more exacting translations to help people understand the Japanese.

The script will include a translation as well as some of the descriptive notes I’ve included in the daily summaries (especially when the feelings are difficult to express in English).

Poetic, natural sounding submissions are definitely encouraged, however! I certainly enjoy reading them. I probably won’t select them as the daily “winner” for inclusion in the script unless they are fairly direct translations, though.

Hopefully this makes at least a little sense.

That’s disappointing! It made sense to me.

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I don’t know. Personally, I feel like the important thing should still be to convey the poem, not the exact wording of the Japanese. I think it does the poems a disservice to favor stilted wording instead of phrasing that makes more sense in English. People can still attempt to read them in Japanese and check their understanding with the translation. These poems are so short, if you get within the ballpark, it’s just as easy to confirm that with a natural sounding translation.

Plus, there will probably be plenty of people who download the script just to passively read the senryu, who won’t bother to attempt a translation for most of them. Or beginners who don’t feel confident yet. I understand not going with the more creative interpretations of some of them (I’ve definitely put out a few of those, haha), but I think it’s best to pick the translation that best conveys the concept and feel of the poem, which occasionally might not be the most direct translation.

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