(The increasingly less) Daily senryu thread

This hits the nail on the head precisely.

My diagram is incorrect, but not because of the ~がある (in brackets to show that it isn’t actually in the poem). The modifying stem beginning with で should be attached to the object on the left, not the implied verb on the right. I’ll fix it when I’m on a computer. [EDIT: See corrected diagram below]

Note that in either language the poem just provides an adjectival description of an object, not a complete sentence that can be diagrammed. Senryu don’t have to be complete sentences, of course, but the point of diagramming is to understand the underlying grammar with complete sentences.

“The piercing” is not a complete sentence. But something like “The piercing [exists]” is. The brackets denote something implied that isn’t actually in the original.

Discussing with my daughter last night, my favorite translation was:

At my hometown station: a removed nose-piercing.

Like your version above, this is a sentence fragment, not a complete sentence.

Of course, the missing/implied verb could be anything. It makes sense to supply something simple like “exists” / ある in brackets to show that it’s implied and not actually present.

Fragments like “The piercing [I] removed at my home town station” are accurate translations. But “I took off my nose-piercing at the hometown station” wouldn’t be…


Edit:

YAY!

It’s just like middle school: my diagramming mistakes (in public) are leading to interesting and valuable discussions. :smile: I’m understanding things more clearly.

Here’s my updated diagram. I think this explains best what I’m trying to point out:

There are two sentences:

  1. An adjectival verb-phrase (if that’s the right lingo) that something was removed at a home-town station. This verb-phrase acts like an adjective. It describes something about the nose-ring (that it was removed at a train station).

  2. The core sentence fragment is “nose ring”.

    A noun (subject) without some sort of verb can’t be a sentence (a complete thought). Something is implied in order to communicate a complete thought. The most basic interpretation is that they mean “There is a nose-ring” (a complete sentence) but the first two words are only implied, all they actually say is “nose-ring”.

In other words, there has to be a verb for 鼻ピアス in order for it to communicate a complete thought. That verb could be anything since it’s unstated in the poem, but the simplest interpretation is ある. The verb はずした is part of an adjectival phrase, not part of the core sentence (in my opinion).

This was an admittedly very long-winded explanation and doubtless some or even most of you feel it unnecessary or overkill if not outright wrong. But I think the diagrams (including inaccuracies) aided the discussion.

It helped me to understand and make the point that a complete sentence like “I took off my nose-ring at the home-town station” would be a loosely correct interpretation, but less accurate than a sentence fragment like “At the home-town station: a nose ring”.

EXACTLY! This is what I’m trying to point out with the diagram. Sorry, I missed this reply.

The latter, however, has lost the verb that is the core part of the relative clause defining what specific nose-ring we’re talking about, so is inaccurate in its own way…

1 Like

Fair point — I unintentionally left out the はずした part in the written sentence (at least it’s still in the diagram).

Rewrite:

A complete sentence like “I took off my nose-ring at the home-town station” would be a loosely correct interpretation, but less accurate than a sentence fragment like “At the home-town station: a removed nose ring”.

@pm215 : Also, did you have an actual submission? I’m trying to find it. I think @LaVieQ’s version captures it fine but I want to make sure I’m not missing one.

1 Like

No, I gave an interpretation and a prose translation but didn’t produce an actual senryuu.

2 Likes

Can we all just agree on “The nosering (that) I took off at my hometown station”?

Grammatically it’s “The ‘I-took-it-off-at-the-home-town-station’ nosering”

2 Likes

Friday, August 26, 2022


Previous senryu

  1. 故郷の駅ではずした鼻ピアス
    ふるさとの・えきではずした・はなピアス
    A nose-ring / — removed at my home / town station

Notes:

  • 鼻ピアス is a nose piercing, a piece of jewelry. I think the two most common words in English would be nose-ring or nose-stud rather than “nose-piercing”. “Ring” isn’t actually specified in the original, but for some reason adding the word “a” sounded better to me, so I changed “nose-piercing” in @LaVieQ’s version to “a nose-ring” to save a syllable. Mea Culpa.

  • As described at length, it’s worthwhile to realize that this senryu is a sentence fragment about an object, and not a complete sentence. Translations like “I removed my nose-ring at the hometown station” capture the essential nuance, but miss the mark. “A nose-stud — removed at my hometown station” retains the sentence fragment nature. The 駅で外した bit adds descriptive detail about the object.

  • Even for something as “simple” as this senryu, I found the diagramming exercise quite worthwhile, if only for stimulating discussion. Here is the (hopefully) final-final version of my diagram for this poem. The last change was remembering that every Japanese sentence (complete thought) has a subject with が, but it’s very often implied and not stated explicitly. The adverbial phrase about removing didn’t include the implied subject so it was also incorrect.

I’m pretty confident in this one now.

I think the rules for diagramming are:

  1. Every word and particle must be included

  2. Any implied words and particles not in the original must be in brackets

  3. Each complete sentence is on a horizontal line with a vertical line separating the SUBJECT from the VERB. The vertical line (usually? always?) represents が,

  4. DIRECT OBJECTS or nouns being operated on by the verb should be separated from the verb with a slanted line above the horizontal one. The appropriate particle (に・で etc.) should attach to the slanted line (in brackets if it’s implied).

  5. Modifiers like adjectives and adverbs should dangle below what they are modifying (as shown).

[Remember that I’m making this up as I go along. I don’t know if anyone has ever tried to diagram Japanese sentences before.]

Current senryu challenge

Volume: Seniors

  1. このハゲはかつらですよと笑わせる

I think this one is pretty easy to understand.

Here's how I parse it (SPOILER!)

The author makes people laugh by saying his bald head is a wig:

I don’t know if that is the correct symbology, but I’m unsure of a better way to denote “[Me saying] [quotation] 笑わせる”.

Any ideas/corrections/comments will be appreciated.


Remember to please use the spoiler tag with your translation attempts! Also, please include the reading in kana with your submission.

Everyone is encouraged to participate, no matter your level! Questions and comments are as valued as translation submissions.

Please try not to be disappointed if your translation isn’t selected or if you disagree with the daily choice: the judge isn’t terribly consistent with his grading (and has awful taste!).
Online tools like dictionaries, sentence databases, and even AI translation engines are fair game and can be extremely helpful. Yomichan is particularly handy if you use the Chrome or Firefox browser. The 語源(ごげん)由来(ゆらい)辞典(じてん) is also an excellent resource for researching the etymology of various words and expressions.

Here are the links to the 356 Japanese originals (spoiler free) and to the the spreadsheet with all the upcoming senryu as well as the translations to date.

No submissions yet, I’ll wait another day.

My attempt:

This bald head:
‘My only toupee’
makes 'em laugh

1 Like

Not very different from yours, but:

My bald head? / It’s a wig, you know! / Makes 'em laugh

4 Likes

このハゲはかつらですよと笑わせる

このハゲは・かつらですよと・わらわせる

He says, “Mere / wig, my baldness.” That / makes me laugh.

  • 3-5-3 take
  • The と quote without a subject is hard to translate into English. Since baldness is mostly a male condition, I assumed that it is a “he” who said it. Plus, having the subject introduced helps to clarify that the person who said it and the one/many who laughed are different.
  • Scenario: An actor at a movie/photo shoot says this to the author, who, fascinated by the actor’s bald head, stares at it long enough for the actor to clarify his baldness.
  • “That makes me laugh” could also be “That makes all laugh,” (for the same syllable count) which may make more sense in this situation, where all would mean everyone in a group watching the shoot.

EDIT: Missed the “you know” bit as in @pm215 's translation. Reads better with it included, methinks.

3 Likes

I’m excited. I can tell by @WovenSapling 's pattern of likes that they are almost caught up to the end of June. :grin:

With any luck, we’ll have another member participating soon.

Ack I’ve been found out :sweat_smile:. I loved this idea since I found it months ago but haven’t caught up yet and my conscience won’t let me join till I’m caught up

6 Likes

You’re very brave and dedicated to read through all of the translation arguments we’ve had along the way haha :sweat_smile:

(I completely understand, though; I’m the exact same way with wanting to read through entire threads before I join in. You’ll be more than prepared to know how the process of translating these tends to go for us!)

5 Likes

Monday, August 29, 2022

Yikes! I appear to have completely forgotten to post a new senryu yesterday.

I had a crazy number of things going on yesterday (including finally feeling well enough after a bad bout of shingles to attempt some long overdue yardwork). Another busy day today, so the spreadsheet will remain woefully behind. Mea culpa!


Previous senryu

  1. このハゲはかつらですよと笑わせる
    このハゲは・かつらですよと・わらわせる
    My bald head? / It’s a wig, you know! / Makes 'em laugh

Notes:

  • The と particle indicates something quoted, in this case, saying “it’s a wig”. The verb 笑わせる means to make laugh, so saying this made people laugh. The reason is the explicit context: このハゲ means “in the context of this bald-guy” or “as for this baldy” (ハゲ comes from はげる, and means baldness as in patchy — in the katakana like this its a slang term for “bald-guy”). [Others may have different opinions on how to interpret this, but since it’s my thread I’m going to claim owners privilege and state categorically that only my opinion matters. :stuck_out_tongue: ]

  • I believe everything in that prior bullet point would be easier to explain with a diagram. I’m honing in on a system to diagram sentences like this, but the version I posted has some issues. I’ll post a better version for this one and a few others soon (here or in another thread).

Current senryu challenge

Volume: Seniors

  1. 飛行機は座れたかいと聞く婆ちゃん

Took me a second, but this situation was wayyyyyyyy too familiar for me not to understand.

My interpretation of the meaning (SPOILER):

“On a plane, granny asks ‘are you sitting’?”.

The key is understanding that かい is just an interrogative like か, and is often used by the elderly.

Forgive the political incorrectness, but I’ve flown literally a dozen or so times per year between the US and Japan for a few decades.

Flight attendants on long-haul flights are often older with lots of seniority. I’ve had more than my share of similar stupid questions from some, not to put too fine a point on it, rude and inattentive battleaxes. Of course I’m sitting! And with my seatbelt fastened — you’re looking right at the buckled seatbelt in my lap!

To be fair, I know it’s a hard job, but I’ve also seen a flight attendant forcefully chewing out a poor elderly Japanese man who clearly spoke no English for having earphones plugged into his ear. Poor man was terrified and utterly mystified. That kind of thing upsets me.


Remember to please use the spoiler tag with your translation attempts! Also, please include the reading in kana with your submission.

Everyone is encouraged to participate, no matter your level! Questions and comments are as valued as translation submissions.

Please try not to be disappointed if your translation isn’t selected or if you disagree with the daily choice: the judge isn’t terribly consistent with his grading (and has awful taste!).
Online tools like dictionaries, sentence databases, and even AI translation engines are fair game and can be extremely helpful. Yomichan is particularly handy if you use the Chrome or Firefox browser. The <語源>[ごげん]<由来>[ゆらい]<辞典>[じてん] is also an excellent resource for researching the etymology of various words and expressions.

Here are the links to the 356 Japanese originals (spoiler free) and to the the spreadsheet with all the upcoming senryu as well as the translations to date.

Reading: ひこうきは すわれたかいと きくばあちゃん

Translation: Did you get / a seat on the plane? / asks granny

Interpretation: You’ve just come home for a visit, and granny’s asking you how the trip was – but she thinks planes work like trains, where if they’re too busy you don’t get a seat and have to stand for the whole journey…

Grammar notes: Note that 座れた is both potential and past tense

Reading notes: This is one where they play a little fast and loose with how many syllables a long vowel is, right? Or is it the ん ?

5 Likes

Ah! Nice.

I’ve got to break my habit of reading these so quickly when I post, my biases get the best of me. I missed exactly this bit:

Your version definitely captures the meaning correctly (unlike mine), but I still struggled to get the humor with this interpretation.

Then it hit me: She’s asking the question after the author arrives at their destination!

Oh! Just saw your explanation of the humor. That seem equally if not more plausible.

I wonder about this every time. I suspect there are no hard and fast rules for counting 音. The one that usually confuses me is 促音 (small tsu) — I never know how to count those.


I became interested in かい vs. か and came across this on stackexchange:

As opposed to 「か」, which is open-ended and can have any sort of answer, 「かい」 is expected to have an answer in the affirmative or negative only, that is, yes or no, with subsequent explanation optional.

I’d mostly only heard かい from older people, but, after thinking about it, this jibes with my experience. Never really realized this before.

2 Likes

Once again, I had all the pieces, but hadn’t managed to put them together in a way that made sense.

One question I have from your reading:
What role do と and 聞く play? The 聞く seems redundant… would the meaning/translation change if it were omitted?

飛行機は座れたかいと聞く婆ちゃん

ひこうきは・すわれたかいと・きくぱあちゃん

“Could it sit -
the airplane?” asks
the granny.

  • 3-4-3
  • I have no clue what granny’s question means. Maybe she’s asking if the plane was on the tarmac when something happened. Maybe she’s futuristic and imagines planes that can sit, stand, and fly off. Maybe she is just dotty. Maybe I’m ignernt. :expressionless:
  • I can’t make sense of the は particle in the sentence. “As for the plane+could sit?”
  • “I got blisters on my brain!” - taking a pass on this one.

EDIT: @pm215 's interpretation makes eminent sense, but don’t see how the translation works with just the は particle. Doesn’t it have to be では or には for that translation? Hmm…

聞く here is ‘to ask’ (not ‘to listen’), and the と is quotative, marking the previous part as the question being asked.

Topics are pretty flexible :slight_smile:

Possibly this senryu may be a reference to a famous-in-the-area long-running local TV ad, talked about in this blog post among others, which included the line あらぁ!よしこちゃん!電車座れたか? Or possibly not…

Ad in question (terrible quality) on youtube.

this video includes a more modern ‘callback’ ad including the line. CM starts at 4mins45 into the video.

2 Likes

Tuesday, August 30, 2022


Previous senryu

  1. 飛行機は座れたかいと聞く婆ちゃん
    ひこうきは すわれたかいと きくばあちゃん
    Did you get / a seat on the plane? / asks granny

Notes:

  • To steal @pm215 's explanation: Granny thinks planes work like trains, where if all the seats are full you must stand for the whole journey.

  • かい is just an interrogative like か, and is often used by the elderly.

  • Apparently,「かい」 is only answered “yes” or “no”, with subsequent explanation optional.「か」 is more open-ended.

  • I mistakenly read this as 座ってるかい on first read (are you sitting) vs. 座れたかい (were you able to sit)! I really need to slow down when reading these things!

  • @LaVieQ mentioned that it would seem to parse better with では or には. As @pm215 explained, the bare は suffices to specify the topic or context of a plane, though. It’s possible that this is just due to 音数(おんすう) (already a weird 5-7-6 as mentioned).

    Digging deeper, though, I think it might be worded this way (vs 飛行機座れたかい) because Granny’s quoted question didn’t mention a plane at all: she just asked 「座れたかい?」. In other words, I think the author is providing a topic to the “outer” sentence, not Granny in her “inner” quoted-question.

    If the author had used では or には, I think it might imply he was quoting what Granny asked while on a plane, vs. the quote being about a plane (trip).

    I suppose the humor could also be her not realizing the author had traveled by plane, and thinking they came by train.

Current senryu challenge

Volume: Various settings

  1. クラクション「どけ」「ありがとう」の区別あり

Katakana-go is still the most difficult part of Japanese! I don’t think it’s worth a spoiler to point out that the first word is “klaxon”.

I’m not even going to attempt interpreting this one until I spend some more time with it, though.


Remember to please use the spoiler tag with your translation attempts! Also, please include the reading in kana with your submission.

Everyone is encouraged to participate, no matter your level! Questions and comments are as valued as translation submissions.

Please try not to be disappointed if your translation isn’t selected or if you disagree with the daily choice: the judge isn’t terribly consistent with his grading (and has awful taste!).
Online tools like dictionaries, sentence databases, and even AI translation engines are fair game and can be extremely helpful. Yomichan is particularly handy if you use the Chrome or Firefox browser. The 語源(ごげん)由来(ゆらい)辞典(じてん) is also an excellent resource for researching the etymology of various words and expressions.

Here are the links to the 356 Japanese originals (spoiler free) and to the the spreadsheet with all the upcoming senryu as well as the translations to date.

1 Like