Concerns over the Japanese language

[phyro]

@Goliath_2412

which aren’t translated (yet), which is tragic.

All the more reason to learn the language, no?

Hitsujibungaku has some really great music. Most of my favorite Japanese songs are anime music so I guess you may just immediately dismiss them but

Kimino shiranai monogatari by supercell is one of my favorite songs; it has some really great lyrics and a piano solo.
It’s a bit hard to find on youtube 'cause of copyright but it gets a lot of covers and I think it might be on spotify (?). Here’s a brief sample from it… (and I doubt my translation really does it justice)
真っ暗な世界から見上げた
夜空は星が降るようで
From a pitch-black earth I looked up
At the night sky, filled with stars that seem to be falling (like rain)

It also has some really interesting expressions like おしすぶされる “to be flattened (by a pressing force)”, which is used metaphorically in the song. It also has a really beautiful part where it uses the fact that the difference between “I didn’t say” and “I wasn’t able to say” is a single syllable in Japanese to create a really beautiful parallelism between two consecutive verses.

[Goliath_2412]

I certainly don’t dismiss anime music.
What I forgot to mention, because my memory is god awful, is that the other japanese music that I have is either anime music (Sailor Moon and Hanayamata), from the video game Yakuza 0, or Vocaloid.

I’ll check it out, thanks!

[Jonapedia]

@Goliath_2412

The same thing that applies to you in french, applies to me in english, down straight really. But you’ll never know all the words, sayings, idioms.

Certainly. However, native speakers don’t know everything either. It’s quite possible to know more expressions than (at least certain) native speakers in some domains, or to know grammatical rules better. It’s doable, and again, all it takes is exposure and effort. I really wish I could use someone other than myself as an example, but there’s a reason I managed to find three obscure words that my French literature-and-philosophy teacher was looking for in a row, even after the rest of the class had tried their luck and failed. They certainly know other expressions that I don’t, but believe me, there are foreign learners who get acknowledged by their native peers as being ‘better’ at the language. I can’t be the only one.

[phyro]

Cool! I think music is one of the big reasons I wanted to learn the language. Well, the primary reason was after hearing it anime I was just kinda stunned at how beautiful the language seemed to me. Obviously it’s a very subjective reason but it’s kept me motivated.

[Kumirei]

I don’t see why more features is necessarily better? When a language is created (or evolved) you weigh grammatical complexity against lexical complexity. It would be ridiculous for a language to have all the features of all languages

[YoungAdam]

I wasn’t trying to imply that you are physically unable to criticize Japanese. You are of course entitled to your opinions, and that’s perfectly fine.
What I meant was that it’s really not best to make a topic in the forums of a Japanese learning website about what you think is bad about Japanese. While yes, every language does have pros and cons, there’s no reason to highlight them because chances are unlikely that they will change. Languages are used as a medium of communication, almost essential to human functioning lives these days. Of course, they can be improved, but unless you will work toward improving them, it’s rather rude to make such criticizations. Not only is it disrespectful to those who originally created the Japanese language, but it’s also disrespectful to those who study it (the vast majority of us here), who use it in daily life (and especially so to those who know no other languages), and many more. It is imperfect, but saying that it’s a waste of time to study this language simply because you believe there are better, more nuanced, and easier-to-learn ones in existence is insulting.

[Goliath_2412]

My sadness is nigh unbearable at this point, because I can not find my source.
This is so sad

[MamaMunch]

@MamaMunch

Can you explain how you would objectively decide the pros and cons of a language? Objectively based on what?

@Goliath_2412

English, for example, does not offer the ability to have a respectful article for someone.

@MamaMunch

But how is that objectively a con? (Or are you saying it’s a pro?)

@Goliath_2412

Because it’s a missing feature, and it is seen, as I know, as a big gripe to polite people, who are then forced to converse in such a, comparatively, awkward manner.

@MamaMunch

@Goliath_2412

to polite people

Meaning specific people, meaning subjectively ?

@Goliath_2412

Not everybody speaks slang, I did not want to generalize.

@MamaMunch

No no, I meant that because only a specific group of people held that opinion then that means it is subjective. Not objective as you were arguing

@Goliath_2412

Maybe I worded it wrong.
Polite in this case is anybody who has been raised with any semblance of manners.

You’re not… quite… Reading what I’m saying…

[Goliath_2412]

I do not care if it is rude, unapologetically.

It is within my right to try and find out, and re-assess, if this is really how I want to spend my time.

I did not say any of the things that you seem to imply that I am.

I think a community should be open enough to also allow this, no?

I can’t express my hatred for what you just wrote adequately.

[Kumirei]

@Goliath_2412

I can’t express my hatred for what you just wrote adequately.

@Mods I think this has gone far enough

[Jonapedia]

@Kumirei

I don’t see why more features is necessarily better? When a language is created (or evolved) you weigh grammatical complexity against lexical complexity. It would be ridiculous for a language to have all the features of all languages

I think the idea is that objectively, all languages have certain abilities while lacking others. That’s really about it. That may make them seem better in some respects. Whether or not you can call that assessment of ‘goodness’ or desirability ‘objective’, however, is another matter. I definitely agree that it’s impossible for a single language to have all the features, and that it’s really hard to say that just having ‘more’ features makes a language better.

@YoungAdam

It is imperfect, but saying that it’s a waste of time to study this language simply because you believe there are better, more nuanced, and easier-to-learn ones in existence is insulting.

Maybe I’m the exception here, but I don’t feel particularly insulted, unfortunate as the situation is… I mean, perhaps it’s subjectively a waste of time, just like how some of us might hate having to sit in French class or English class? Everyone has a different opinion. It doesn’t mean that it’s universally a waste of time, or that your (more accurately, our) efforts in learning Japanese have been a ridiculous farce. If OP is here to evaluate whether or not it’s a waste of time by his standards, so be it, no?
(EDIT: But yeah, ok, that last message was kinda overboard…)

[YoungAdam]

Thank you, @Kumirei

@JenK (idk if direct tagging works any faster but) please see above

And OP, may I suggest reading the forum FAQ and guidelines? Checking your profile, it seems you have not yet done so, so I encourage​ you to do so.

[Goliath_2412]

I learn just the same, can I not be curious and ask questions, even if some might find them rude, which was not my intention.

I, too, would argue that your message was just as rude as mine, and I, instead left it at that and did not go any further.

[MamaMunch]

@Goliath_2412

I, too, would argue that your message was just as rude as mine,

…

@Goliath_2412

I do not care if it is rude, unapologetically.

@Goliath_2412

I can’t express my hatred for what you just wrote adequately.

You made your intentions much more explicitly clear, which is the problem.

[Leebo]

@Goliath_2412

I can’t express my hatred for what you just wrote adequately.

Here’s a thesaurus entry for きらい

嫌いの類語・関連語・連想語: 連想類語辞典

[Jonapedia]

@MamaMunch

You made your intentions much more explicitly clear, which is the problem.

At the risk of trying a little too hard to smooth things over, I’d like to suggest we give OP a bit of the benefit of doubt, because OP isn’t a native English speaker and we all know things can come out really wrong when we’re not using our native languages… (just a random example: Angst in German is just ‘fear’ or ‘anxiety’, whereas in English, it’s somewhere in between ‘anger/irritability’ (in informal usage, anyway) and ‘existential dread’. Nowhere near the same thing.) I’m not even sure if ‘pros and cons’ was really what was supposed to turn up earlier, for instance…

Anyway, I think the discussion is basically over though, at this point, and OP probably has got his answer, so… I’m out. I need to sleep. All the best with Japanese everyone, and stay safe. Goodnight!

[MamaMunch]

I understand what you mean… maybe I am too pessimistic overall… but OP also used the word “hatred” which I’m not sure deserves the benefit of the doubt, here at least.

@Jonapedia

Anyway, I think the discussion is basically over though, at this point,

Agree with that though haha

[Naytrib]

@Goliath_2412

English, for example, does not offer the ability to have a respectful article for someone

@Goliath_2412

it’s a missing feature

@Goliath_2412

The same thing that applies to you in french, applies to me in english, down straight really.

Maybe it’s unwarranted, but the English major in me wants to jump in here because I actually think this is really interesting. (And hopefully to defuse some of what’s going on, because I also think this is an interesting topic on the whole…)

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the only “articles” present in English (I think) are “a,” “an,” and “the.” So, you’re technically correct, English doesn’t have a “respectful” article. What it does have, interestingly, is the ability to express politeness or increase formality through synonyms and the like. I think it’s actually a lot more similar to keigo than many seem to believe, but could be totally off base with that (nor can I speak at all to German). To me, it’s not so much a “missing feature” as it is a “different” feature. That is, it’s the same concept, but expressed a totally different way.

Reading a lot of your replies, you actually seem to be speaking in a highly stilted manner (especially with an abuse of commas, but that’s another thing, lol). This is often considered being so blatantly over-polite as to intentionally come across as rude, but I’m sure that’s not necessarily your intention. And, in a way, I think that in itself actually answers your question, if I’m understanding it correctly? Language can seem restrictive simply because of all these inherent nuances giving native speakers a huge advantage, just like through these differences between English and (I’m assuming?) German. It’s not necessarily that the language itself is restrictive, but that our understanding of it, based on what we know through the language which wired our brains, imposes these restrictions on our own thoughts.

I hope that makes some sense, and that I’m not just rambling, but, yeah, two cents in here.

[Jonapedia]

@Naytrib

(especially with an abuse of commas, but that’s another thing, lol)

Quick fact before I nod off: his comma usage patterns follow German grammar rules. That’s the reason for it. Quite different from the usual patterns in English, I’ll grant you that.

[Naytrib]

I had no idea! Thanks, that’s really interesting as well.