Beginner at Learning Japanese

[drackyslime]

@Jordy_AND1

Unless you got a better way I’m all ears.

Generally speaking I think Katakana shouldn’t even be started on until you have all of Hiragana under your belt and are comfortable enough with it that you actively feel ready to effectively do the entire process again for Kata- and if that’s the case there generally isn’t that much confusion or mixup.

Blending the two can definitely be a good exercise especially as you’re shifting from beginning general memorization to speedy recollection- but in the basic starting point I think mixing only causes more bloat, so try it at your own risk if you do. I find it easier to approach as it’s own, in a vacuum thing so you’re better at mentally differentiating.

@Jordy_AND1

When adding two characters together such as yoon. would there be parts that are silent when speaking but are obviously written normally. or with other areas that I am currently unfamiliar with.

The only thing I can think of (and this is barely even what you’re asking) is when you’re doing the Yoon combinations with じ / ji specifically, you can see it romanized as just j or jy at the start. Ex;
じゃ / ja or jya
じょ / jo or jyo
じゅ / ju or jyu
I’ve seen it both ways, they read the same way mentally, and both ways function identially when typing. I like romanizing as jy- but that is just personal preference.

[polv]

Proper Nihon Shiki romanization is zy-, but jy- is also used

So that za 行 becomes za, zi (ji), zu, ze, zo.

I think typing zya or jya is good, because it follows 3 char pattern of kya, nya, etc., and also cha (tya) and sha (sya). Furthermore, ya yu yo is still in the open.

I also type jy- sometimes regardless.

[drackyslime]

Interesting, I had never learned it like that or knew it was an option for romanization. Makes good sense though- I’ll keep it in mind in the future. Thanks for pointing me towards it I appreciate it.

[Jordy_AND1]

ah okay then. I’ll stick to hiragana for a bit then move onto katakana. Should I also learn Dakuon and Handakuon as well as Yoon in this time period before I move a long to Katakana.

Having a bit of trouble remembering things at the moment, unsure if its a adhd thing if I got it or something other. seems to be I remember all the hard ones then the most simple I freeze. e.g. for i, ku, ko. Don’t understand it. Pretty much all day just been revising the first 10 Hira. and later on in the day ill do some vocab.

@drackyslime

Blending the two can definitely be a good exercise especially as you’re shifting from beginning general memorization to speedy recollection- but in the basic starting point I think mixing only causes more bloat, so try it at your own risk if you do. I find it easier to approach as it’s own, in a vacuum thing so you’re better at mentally differentiating.

I’ll experiment, and if not then just going to stick with Hira for a few months.

@drackyslime

The only thing I can think of (and this is barely even what you’re asking) is when you’re doing the Yoon combinations with じ / ji specifically, you can see it romanized as just j or jy at the start. Ex;
じゃ / ja or jya
じょ / jo or jyo
じゅ / ju or jyu
I’ve seen it both ways, they read the same way mentally, and both ways function identially when typing. I like romanizing as jy- but that is just personal preference.

They all sound the same but with noticeable change if you focus on it. Unsure if it matters, but it was just a question floating around.

[Jordy_AND1]

Confusion 101

[drackyslime]

@Jordy_AND1

Should I also learn Dakuon and Handakuon as well as Yoon in this time period before I move a long to Katakana

Yes you should/will need to, all of those elements are necessary to learning Hiragana. Though as complex as it sounds on the surface, I don’t think you should worry too much if it is seeming daunting. If/when you get the core 46 down, these are moreso just an addtional couple rules more than they are true additional content. Yoon especially is so consistent and predictable I don’t even personally consider it as “additional characters” to learn like the other stuff.

In order;

• Master the main 46
• Learn the rules of Dakuon and then practice that
• Do the same for Handakuon (almost identical to Dakuon and only 1/4th the workload)
• Learn the rules of Yoon and then practice that

When you reach the end of that list and practice enough to where you earnestly feel confident and comfortable (not 100% perfect necessarily, but comfortable), then move onto Katakana.

The nice part is Katakana is effectively identical to Hiragana in terms of content and mechanics, so you should have good expectations going into it when that bridge is ready to be crossed.

Additional note but something I remembered- another app I used back in the day (unsure if on devices beyond Apple) was one I believe just called “Kana - Hiragana and Katakana”. If you can find that app, it’s really great for additional writing practice and you can make very tailored quizzes that helped for my memorization. As far as I remember it was free, too, so might be worth checking out if you haven’t already.

[CherryApple]

@Jordy_AND1

I’ll experiment, and if not then just going to stick with Hira for a few months.

It’s ok If you have Problems remembering all Katakana. You will be able to remember them better after you have started using them for real words and Grammar exercises.

[Jordy_AND1]

been really busy and it’ll continue till Wednesday, so I’ll try my best to get back to you guys when I can.

@drackyslime

Yes you should/will need to, all of those elements are necessary to learning Hiragana. Though as complex as it sounds on the surface, I don’t think you should worry too much if it is seeming daunting. If/when you get the core 46 down, these are moreso just an addtional couple rules more than they are true additional content. Yoon especially is so consistent and predictable I don’t even personally consider it as “additional characters” to learn like the other stuff.

yoon might be a bit difficult for this current time but just need to work through it and hopefully should be pretty easy. Had a quick look and the first one for Yoon is kya, but the character is ki so I don’t know why it is kya???

@drackyslime

• Master the main 46
• Learn the rules of Dakuon and then practice that
• Do the same for Handakuon (almost identical to Dakuon and only 1/4th the workload)
• Learn the rules of Yoon and then practice that

for instance a check list till you move onto kata. only once fully learned and doesn’t necessarily need to be 100% felling ready to move on

@drackyslime

Additional note but something I remembered- another app I used back in the day (unsure if on devices beyond Apple) was one I believe just called “Kana - Hiragana and Katakana”. If you can find that app, it’s really great for additional writing practice and you can make very tailored quizzes that helped for my memorization. As far as I remember it was free, too, so might be worth checking out if you haven’t already.

This is the main app that i’ve found to be really effective within my learnings for writing and learning Hiragana.

I’m struggling doing vocab and learning words, so if you have a recommendation for this area I’ll greatly appreciate it.

[Jordy_AND1]

I’m not really sure where to start for grammar and vocab. would you have any recommendations that would help greatly.

have done some but been putting it off to learn Hiragana. I know, Hello, no, yes, and excuse me. but that’s it. and don’t see it being rent free in my head. like how we would think of English, we thing the word then we say it. but for Japanese currently is I say the word konnichiwa, but say hello for english

[drackyslime]

@Jordy_AND1

Had a quick look and the first one for Yoon is kya, but the character is ki so I don’t know why it is kya???

The gist of Yoon is that it takes a character from the い / i-sound column
For example; き , ひ , り / ki , hi , ri

Followed by a smaller version of one of the y-sound row characters
Y-sound row: や , ゆ , よ / ya , yu , yo (small variant: や → ゃ , ゆ → ゅ , よ → ょ)
(you will only see the small versions of these in Yoon application, never any other context)

In doing so, it condenses this from two syllables into one singular one

Using the example you provided of kya;
If you saw きや , each character would be a syllabul - like “ki-ya”

However using Yoon mechanics, if the や is small like ゃ - the i in ki would be removed
きゃ would read as “kya”

If you know that pattern, that’s all there is to Yoon
ひよ / hiyo
ひょ / hyo

りゆ / riyu
りゅ / ryu

It’s a little tricky at first since the size difference is a little subtle, but once you get an eye for it it clicks fast. You’ll get there officially eventually so don’t worry about it quite yet, and it shouldn’t be too much a headache when you get there either.

@Jordy_AND1

for instance a check list till you move onto kata. only once fully learned and doesn’t necessarily need to be 100% felling ready to move on

Yup, if you get that checklist under your belt, you’ll have learned all of Hiragana and it’s mechanics. Take some time to get comfy with it, sure, but once you are feeling confident and ready- then move on to Katakana. As you practice literally anything with Japanese, you’ll inevitably get more experience with it all so you don’t have to be 100% perfect right at the start. Best way to sharpen up your skill is to start applying it

@Jordy_AND1

I’m struggling doing vocab and learning words, so if you have a recommendation for this area I’ll greatly appreciate it

I think biting too much off at once could tangle you up in the moment, so keep working on nailing down Hira/Kata first and don’t worry too much of this front quite yet- but when you’re feeling more prepared;

Pretty much any basic / all-encompassing language learning program will get you a good start on some basic vocab (and usually without any Kanji for a while). Duolingo, Busuu, Genki Textbooks all get you a nice little supply and ease you in very smoothly. I like these options since it will give you some context in how they are used in sentences, too.

Bunpro also has a pretty great vocab section attached to it, and something like Anki can definitely get you a huge quantity- but they’re not as “step-1 beginner” designed as the previously mentioned.

By the time you start seriously looking into bringing Kanji into your workflow, here at WaniKani (if you decide to use it) will introduce you to thousands, too.

[CherryApple]

@Jordy_AND1

I’m struggling doing vocab and learning words, so if you have a recommendation for this area I’ll greatly appreciate it.

Did you already try Anki or another SRS? I have Problems using it so I learn Just the vocabulary that I have to use for Grammar exercises.

[Jordy_AND1]

my apologisers for the long wait. been busy and am sorry.

@drackyslime

However using Yoon mechanics, if the や is small like ゃ - the i in ki would be removed
きゃ would read as “kya”

pretty much i in kiya would be silent. but therefore it wouldn’t shown in its written form.

@drackyslime

It’s a little tricky at first since the size difference is a little subtle, but once you get an eye for it it clicks fast. You’ll get there officially eventually so don’t worry about it quite yet, and it shouldn’t be too much a headache when you get there either.

same goes with pretty much everything I suppose. just haven’t been busy so learning has been a stand still and postponed for a bit. but still remember all I’ve learned up till this point.

@drackyslime

By the time you start seriously looking into bringing Kanji into your workflow, here at WaniKani (if you decide to use it) will introduce you to thousands, too.

do plan on using wanikani as soon as I learn a decent amount. with the other sources will definitely be giving them a go.

Seen a-lot of great websites and apps that all give their own way of learning with similar ways. some faster and quicker progression, for people that need to learn quick and have a bit of Japanese for traveling. others more in depth and are targeted for people that really are dedicated and want to learn the language (me). so yes it’ll all take time, just need to have free time to do it.

[Jordy_AND1]

I’m not familiar with any of that. would you perhaps have any links towards them?

just sticking with these apps and immersing as much as possible. As you can see in my background.

[Jordy_AND1]

Had a bit of time to thing and have one more question that I’ve had time to ponder on.

Is it better to write the proper way to write the kana in detail. cause I know that reading is different as in with simpler lines.

for example i and ko is written with smooth lines rather then detailed strokes. Photos taken are on the kana app. the top where you would read in every day sense, compared to the bottom.

[drackyslime]

As long as you have the basic shape and proper strokes, it should be fine and there is no “correct” way

Think of how when writing in English you (and everyone else) has their own handwriting nuances, or how the font used in digital/print doesn’t impact legibility. It’s the same with this, though it just is something you’re (justifiably) more conscious about here since it’s foreign

If you’re physically writing, you’ll probably look a little more like the bottom examples since human hands and instantaneous writing aren’t quite as polished as the made-for-text font at the top, but no legibility is sacrificed unless you’re carelessly messy or just flat out incorrect (which is not an issue of writing style)

[mizz_toffee]

I use LingoDeer as well, but not regularly. I really enjoy writing the language. I hope to find a resource that focuses on this.

[Jordy_AND1]

Please excuse my latency with replying.

@drackyslime

Think of how when writing in English you (and everyone else) has their own handwriting nuances, or how the font used in digital/print doesn’t impact legibility. It’s the same with this, though it just is something you’re (justifiably) more conscious about here since it’s foreign

Well its probably going the be the most messiest writing you’ve ever seen. But I haven’t been this in love with writing ever. Still enjoying it, just really slow progress then what I’d hope. Haven’t done any vocab for a bit, and only moving forward with Hiragana when comfortable with all I’ve remembered. Only up to the T group.

@drackyslime

If you’re physically writing, you’ll probably look a little more like the bottom examples since human hands and instantaneous writing aren’t quite as polished as the made-for-text font at the top, but no legibility is sacrificed unless you’re carelessly messy or just flat out incorrect (which is not an issue of writing style)

Always go off the writing at the bottom. so it takes a bit while reading, to decern what I’m looking at.

[Jordy_AND1]

Love using LingoDeer.

A few resources I’ve been recommended and can’t live without would be. Kana, Benkyo, Sensei renshuu, and of cource Wanikani.

Thanks to a few people but of memory, Thank you to @drackyslime

[Jordy_AND1]

On average how long would it take to learn all of Hiragana. How long it took you, and how long for everyone else.

If I spaced out my time and was a bit more disciplined and dedicated I definitively could of learnt Hiragana withing a few weeks. Just been busy and like to have a clear structure before going in. I’m sure some other people are the same, having all the info and the best study route.

[alexphrodisiac]

I’ve seen people saying they learned both Hiragana and Katakana in a day or two.

I find this to be quite aggressive versus my own experience. When I started, I probably spent about ~5 days learning Hiragana, with about 1-2 hours a day spent on it. Afterwards, it took me around 3 more days to learn the Katakana (easier since it’s the same sounds and some writings are reminiscent of the Hiragana character). I used Duolingo’s kana training exercises and this Kana iOS app to practice, as well as handwriting the characters on kana grid paper.

As for really familiar mastery, I’m over a year into learning Japanese and sometimes I still have to pause for a moment on a kana or can easily mix up similar characters when not paying very close attention. This is more accentuated with Katakana as some characters just don’t come up that often (ヌ often gets me) and of course there’s infamously シツンソ.