Yawn /10char
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“No baggage, just a preconceived notion of what this is really about that’s totally clouding my judgement.”
As others have said, respecting the existence of trigger warnings and avoiding offence are two entirely separate things. The fact you describe one as a “symptom” of the other belies that you are mistakenly conflating them.
As others have pointed out, there are numerous style guides by various publications on how to approach the topic of suicide sensitively, because of how upsetting it can be to some people. You’re welcome to think and say “I don’t care if others are upset” as is afforded by your free speech rights, but don’t try to kid yourself and others that this is a principled response to some amorphous threat to censorship (or be surprised that people might call you out for being inconsiderate).
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As a Buddhist, I reject the notion that people have a right (or even a remote possibility) to go through life without being triggered or offended. It’s part of the human experience that can’t be avoided, and is one of the many forms of suffering that characterize our existence as animals on a deeply impefect planet. I have close friends and family members who have committed suicide, and in my role as a priest I have tried to help others who have ultimately taken their lives. Nonetheless, it would never make sense to me to try to expunge the mention of suicide from my life. Attempting to remove triggers and offense will never lead to hapiness becuase it simply can never be succesful. It will thus only lead to more furstration and disappointment when one inevitably come upon the next offending word or concept they feel they by right should not experience. I wish we could live in a Pure Land without such suffering, but in reality the only way we can overcome such suffering is by learning to be comfortable with it. Some cases, like the use of a viciously deragatory word, may of course truly require action, but even still, accepting is not the same as condoning.
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What are you even talking about? The very next sentence I go on to say that I do NOT think that that was the TC’s intention. However while we’re on the subject, I did not erroneously conflate the two. I hate being a pedant who breaks out the dictionary in defense of an argument, but here we go.
Offend: : to cause (a person or group) to feel hurt, angry, or upset by something said or done.
Trigger: : to cause an intense and usually negative emotional reaction in (someone)
Obviously so-called triggers fall under the general umbrella of offensive subjects. They’re certainly not 100% synonymous terms but there is a great deal of overlap.
And again, I’m not fundamentally opposed to the introduction of a feature that allows individual users to hide certain words that they find objectionable, so long as it doesn’t impact the rest of the paying users. However that was not what the TC originally said. Also let’s be real here: if it comes down to either re-programming the site to introduce such a niche feature or removing a single word from the study list, WK would probably go with the latter simply because it’s so much easier. And lo and behold, we have a WK mod in this very thread saying that they are going to review the word to decide whether or not it should remain.
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I’m glad we’ve found common ground - I think we’re in agreement on the main point of this topic.
As for definitions, “trigger warning” is a specific psychological term of art which has its origins in “triggering flashbacks” in PTSD. Sadly the term has been co-opted in modern discourse as a slur to portray anyone who feels strongly about anything as a hysterical wreck - but the purpose of trigger warnings is nothing to do with preventing moral outrage, which is usually where debates around offence stem from (and the difference I was trying to stress).
I also agree, not least as someone who sees terms like it every day in my work, that it’d be a shame if words like 飛び込み自殺 were removed from the WaniKani database entirely. However, the inconvenience I would feel in its removal is nothing compared the distress that repeated exposure might cause to a minority of users. I’d personally rather the Devs prioritized those users needs over my own, when drawing lines on what’s included and how best to present it (as it seems they are - thanks guys!) rather than simply not caring.
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I generally agree on the unfortunate fate of the term Trigger, it being a legitimate medical term, which is a large part of why I’m often so bored and dismissive of the discussion or inclusion of trigger warnings or the removal of objectionable material in modern discourse (for example, the scrubbing of books such as Huckleberry Finn and To Kill a Mockingbird from our pedagogies). I think the term and the way its used have been watered down to practical uselessness.
As for the rest of your comment, while I certainly understand where you (and TC) are coming from, I will never agree that removing information is the correct approach, particularly on an educational platform. Because like I said before, where do you draw the line?
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This assumes that the way Wanikani is at this very moment is somehow the default, and deviating from it is the first step of removal of avoiding a term based on “offense” ever. You’re not noticing that a line is ALWAYS being drawn. I mean, slurs exist in Japanese, super vulgar terms exist, etc. But they aren’t here. The line has already been drawn; you can’t appeal to avoiding drawing that line. Plenty of information was “removed” in that it was never added in the first place.
I reject the notion that people have a right (or even a remote possibility) to go through life without being triggered or offended.
I want to call this out because this idea is a strawman. Nobody is asking that someone be able to go through life without ever encountering anything distressing, what we are asking is that people be considerate, and give people who may have PTSD triggers or other trauma around certain language the ability to avoid that languge if it’s not necessary, and prepare themselves accordingly if it is necessary. It’s about showing compassion for these people, something I understand Buddhists to take very seriously.
People with PTSD triggers often say that if they are warned ahead of time that they’re going to encounter something triggering, it’s usually much less distressing and they can push through it, and if they’re not in the headspace to engage with it right now they can walk away and come back to it when they’re in a better mindset to approach it. This is the entire point of trigger warnings, something that has been lost amidst the false equivalency with “taking offense” and “censorship” and the inconsiderate strawman that people are oversensitive snowflakes who want to go their entire lives without ever encountering challenging or upsetting ideas.
Personally I agree with people that completely removing potentially upsetting words is not the best approach, and that WK can create tools to allow people to remove such words themselves or provide some warning so that people are able to engage with these words as part of their learning. I hope they choose to do so. But even if they simply decide to remove the words that’s a better solution than doing nothing and telling people to just suck it up.
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I may have missed something but nobody is saying to remove the word suicide (自殺).
The Tofugu team already “decides for” us. This is not supposed to be a complete dictionary.
Jisho has over 15 words for different ways to take your own life and that’s just counting the ones that end with *自殺 and describe the method of death.
Wanikani has: suicide (自殺), a euphemism for suicide (自決), and a word for one specific type of suicide (飛び込み自殺).
I would hardly say we’re being “censored” because we’re not learning the other words…(Such as 過労自殺 suicide brought on by excessive overwork which is definitely a Japanese cultural concept.)
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they also often say the opposite. research is unfortunately far from being clear on that (x). you could even make the argument learning those terms in this neutral language learning setting (not via newspapers) and being minimally exposed repeatedly is a form of therapy, since controlled exposure is a form of treatment.
i still like the idea of a SFW / PG13 mode the best not only because of the term(s) discussed in this thread. i’m almost always in favour of having more choices.
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I would also like to see a SFW feature implemented if possible.
I’d like if it could be switched on and off.
I personally do plan on learning all vocab on Wanikani, but sometimes I’m doing reviews in public spaces (in Japan) and I feel kind of awkward when sexual or violent words show up on my phone or computer.
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I have had friends who are victims of suicide and I’ve dealt with depression my entire life. But regardless of that, if this word offends you maybe you shouldn’t come to Japan or read Japanese news. There are many things here that are far more problematic. That said, I wouldn’t mind a SFW filter.
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There are many people throwing out legitimate opinions on both sides, but I’m also noticing a lot of adult children in these comments whining about having to be considerate to other people and making bad faith ad absurdum arguments rather than considering that there may be a reason to not have a method of suicide recurring in your reviews.
I think maybe a reasonable solution for certain unfortunate words that may bring up trauma (to a reasonable extent, like nobody wants to censor “お母さん”, shut up kyle you absolute hog) could be giving users the option to remove it from their review deck by selecting an option. Though I think learning this kinda stuff is necessary to a certain extent, having the ability to limit the recurrence of uncomfortable or traumatic material could just be a generally good thing
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Nut allergies are life threatening, they can actually kill a person.
Which makes it sound like you are equating something genuinely life threatening, with the (unproven as yet) possibility that seeing the word suicide can ‘trigger’ someone?
And what do we even mean by ‘trigger’? make someone feel temporarily uncomfortable because it reminds them about horrible things? or make them suicidal? It’s quite a spectrum isn’t it.
WK isn’t here to provide help with mental health issues. It’s a kanji learning device. If people feel truly wretched from reading a word then it might be a wake-up call to seek help. Surely.
I’m sure these concerned people mean well. But should WK ‘doublecheck’ other vocabulary… death? car? (lots of people have car accidents) heartbreak? where do you stop?
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The energy surronding this thread is much more depressing than the word “飛び込み自殺” itself. lol
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All I’m saying is that giving the option is the best solution to this issue. Can’t help but feel this situation has been blown out of proportion because of the political undertone. Moderation has already said they’ll look into it and both sides have expressed their opinion. This thread will get locked, it’s like juggling matches in a firework factory. It’s run its course and leaving it going will only lead to more conflicts. With an option, people who want it use it, people who don’t want it, won’t. Problem solved.
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Thread lock incoming
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I like how you intentionally singled out the one (intentionally absurd) example that was there to simply illustrate a point. Although now that I think about it, how do you know what other people’s “lived experiences” are? How do you know what their mental state is?
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My point is that it would be rude and potentially dangerous to assume that because I can eat nuts, it’s 100% safe for everyone to do that, and if that’s not true, it’s a personal failing on their part, and taking away nuts from a general service would be a personal attack on me and my rights.
Someone providing food as a service would have to weigh every potential allergen, even non-deadly ones, balancing the degree of possible impact vs. the value of including it.
I think the same principal should apply here – and just because 99.99% of words in Wanikani’s context are patently harmless, doesn’t mean for a fact they all are.
I don’t know how impactful this specific word is, but from reading this thread, and from hearing in the past that phrasing can make a difference when it comes to suicidal ideation, and that discussing specific methods is generally more impactful in that scenario, I think there’s reason enough to do the minimum due dilligence and not assume the impact is absolute zero.
I trust the Wanikani team’s judgment, and so to me them doublechecking how they feel about the word, or how they feel about adding more options to customize the site so everyone isn’t eating from the exact same trough so to speak, is a good outcome to me, even if it results in zero change.
To flip this around:
if we could identify that in our kanji learning device, some number of people feel truly wretched when they encounter one of the words, why the hell would we want that?
Regardless of what the consumer should do in that situation, it’s good practice for a teacher to make sure students don’t feel truly wretched!
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This is a perfectly civilised thread, nobody’s getting particularly shirty? We’re just adults with different and equally legitimate points of view.
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