After finishing HJ, should I start reading from the absolute beginner book club?

You will literally always feel this way. The only way to get through this feeling is to start. Most of what you need to know to get through this stage will come from practicing reading. No matter how many words or grammar points you learn from books and apps, there’s always going to be a huge jump to native material in context.

The book clubs are great, so trying it out is a good start. But I’d highly recommend reading daily separate from them. I love the White Rabbit graded reader stories. I can’t remember how hard they were for me when I started, but I’ve read them dozens of times and keep picking up new things I didn’t notice. They are well worth the investment and a better place to start than an “easy novel.” I think the app even has one of them for free, so you can see if Level 1 is too hard (there’s a Level 0).

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Since you’ve just finished Human Japanese, I can highly recommend their other product, Satori Reader. I’ve run into exactly the same problems you’ve had with Chi and Yotsuba (informal grammar, baby talk) and I’ve had some success with the graded readers. I just started Satori Reader a few days ago, and I’m really sorry I didn’t dive into it sooner.

The thing I’m enjoying most about Satori Reader is, you can click on every word in a story, and you’ll get at least a dictionary definition – and it will be the correct definition for that context. Plus, each sentence has a full English translation; it’s not a fully-idiomatic translation, but one that tries to map more directly to the Japanese.

And if you’ve clicked on an expression, or a complex grammar point, there will be an extremely detailed explanation. There was one I read today, where the explanation started with, “Let’s unpack this sentence together,” and went on to a page-long dissection of all the grammar.

A free account will give you access to the first two pages of all of their stories, so I think you can get a really good idea of what it does. Like I said, I tried it a year or two ago, got really frustrated with how often I was clicking on the definitions, and put it back down. I kind of wish I’d started it then, and leaned into the frustration, but maybe I just wasn’t quite ready, yet.

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Oof I remember when I first started immersion only knowing a thousand words. It was hard as hell. If you like manga then you should go for it. The grammar is hard to understand when you’re a beginner but if you can look up some of the nouns you may be able to piece together what is going on from context. If you’re learning vocab words as you go then at least you’re getting something out of it. Immersion is going to be tough whenever you start.

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You mentioned the doggy Detective books looking difficult. I can tell you from my own experience, I started with doggy Detective 1 and I’m working with the book club on the second book now…I can now read the entire weeks pages in the time it took me to get through one page when I started. I still will run into new grammar and maybe take a half hour or more working through a sentence, but that’s just part of the journey. I find that my biggest leap in reading ability was just from practicing with these two books.

I think even standalone grammar studies start becoming more memorable when you know you’ve seen or struggled with real sentences that use the grammar point you’re learning.

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Wow, so many helpful replies! Thanks a lot, everybody. I didn’t expect to get this much in the way of feedback so I’m really grateful for all you have to say. :slight_smile: All of your advice seems pretty sound, so I think I’ll try out those methods and keep in mind that it’s just always going to be difficult at the start.

@ChristopherFritz
It’s less reliable sources I’m worried about, and more my own failings, to be honest. I might misinterpret what I find or end up looking up a grammar point that at first glance might look like it matches what’s in the text I’m reading, but might be an entirely different matter.
Yeah, I switched that to “tag” instead of suspending in Anki, though I’ll be switching over to kitsun full-time once I’m done with the HJ decks. But do you recommend doing something with those suspended words then, or should I just learn them naturally via immersion if they won’t stick in SRS?

@magsl
I haven’t started using either yet, but I’ll definitely take that into account! I’ve used the Todai Easy Japanese app for reading news articles, which I think does the same thing. It’s really great to use but I stopped using it when I got frustrated from having to click almost every single word to understand things. I’ll see if I can integrate some sort of reader with texts I read, though I don’t know if I’d be able to do that with Kobo, as most of my Japanese books are on Kobo.

@sergiop
That makes a lot of sense! I flipped through Genki a bit and noticed that it seemed to have things that hadn’t been introduced in HJ (though HJ might have some things not in Genki as well, I don’t know). Because of that, I was planning on quickly going through Genki I and II after I finished HJI to patch up any gaps in my knowledge before moving on to either Tobira or Quartet (I still haven’t decided which one to go with yet, but I have time to figure that out). And yeah, sorry if the way I worded it made it seem otherwise, but I’m definitely planning on continuing with my grammar studies while doing this. The reading is just something I figured I could do on the side, but I’m prioritizing HJI and Wanikani for sure. You’re right, I kind of figured HJ wouldn’t prepare you for native content, at least it doesn’t seem that way to me atm. I figure HJI and then Satori Reader which I might start at the same time I go through Genki might be enough, but I got curious about starting early after seeing the absolute beginner book club. But I’m also like you–I have a hard time pushing through if I don’t understand the grammar or most of the vocabulary. I’m going to try anyway though since it seems most of you think it’s helpful to get some reading practice in early. :slight_smile:
Btw, as somebody who has gone through both HJ and Genki, what do you think about HJ’s grammar explanations vs Genki’s? I’ve heard that Genki sometimes leaves things out or gives absolutes before correcting themselves in later chapters when they feel you’re ready to know about the various exceptions or other meanings, which is something I’m not a huge fan of. Tbh, that’s the main reason I’ve stuck with HJ, is that their grammar explanations just feel so clear, and I figured if I learned grammar concepts through HJ first, I might not get as frustrated with Genki later.

@CoffeeFuel
Oh, that’s funny, I’m exactly the opposite when it comes to tolerance for grammar vs vocabulary. I’ve found that while I dislike not knowing the words, I really hate not knowing the grammar. I think it’s just because for me, I can look up the words fairly easily through a dictionary or parser, but it’s a lot harder to look up the grammar and know if what I’m looking up is the right thing or not. A matter of confidence in the dictionary vs confidence in my google skills. lol
I’ve actually read all the grade 0 stories, and thankfully am able to read them without needing to look up anything–I just learn words in context. I wasn’t confident enough to move on to grade 1, but I probably should do that at some point. I will still probably skim through the picks from the absolute beginner book club to be sure, but if I struggle too much with them (and I very well might!) I will go back to purely graded readers. Tbh even if I don’t struggle with them, I’ll probably still go through the graded readers after hearing how helpful they were for you. I was hoping to “graduate” from them as soon as possible, but maybe that’s the wrong way to look at it since they seem to prepare you for native material fairly well. Maybe instead of looking for the easiest book or manga, it’d be better to stick with the graded readers!
Good luck! Your plan sounds pretty solid and I might try to follow in your footsteps once I reach a similar level.

@Hilbert90
That makes sense. Yeah, I should probably just get over that and jump in. Knowing that it’s a big jump no matter the level, is oddly enough, a bit reassuring. A part of me thought that it was something that could be bridged by upfront learning, and so I was always worried about when exactly would be the right time to start. I guess there really isn’t a “right time” and more just a “do it.”
I actually have read through a couple of White Rabbit stories! At least the ones in their app (I don’t like physical books due to lack of physical room). Sadly, they don’t seem to have that many in their app, which is a bit of a bummer. But yeah, what you and CoffeeFuel have said about graded readers has made me reconsider them. I was going to try to move on from them asap, but it seems to be worth the while to stick with them for as long as possible instead.

@ccprince
Oh, I was going to start using Satori Reader after I finished HJI, but if I’m already going to be starting to read, it’s probably a good idea to start using it earlier as well. I’ve heard a lot of good things about it, but I held back mainly because of the subscription model (I know, I know, seems strange coming from somebody who uses Wanikani). I think I will try out the free account though, and see how I feel about the stories. And yeah, people are telling me to lean into the frustration, but I think I agree with what others have said, that it depends on how well you tolerate not knowing anything. I think my tolerance is a bit too low though, so I’m going to at least try it out and see how I feel about it. :slight_smile:

@tankwidow
Yeah, it definitely seems pretty hard. T_T But I have been told to stick with it and so I shall, since apparently it’s going to be tough no matter what, and it should hopefully get easier the longer I do it. And yeah, I’m hoping I can get to the point I can just learn new words via context since that seems pretty intuitive and more in line with what I remember when I started reading in my native language as a child.

@SolarHusky
Huh, that’s pretty heartening to hear, tbh. I’m glad that it gets a lot easier over time and not harder, or about the same. I will try to remember that whenever I struggle with my reading, that it will get better. And you make a good point with the grammar becoming more memorable. I’ve noticed that I seem to remember the things I’ve come across in graded readers a lot more easily than the ones I haven’t. So starting to read now, no matter how hard it is, seems to be the way to go! I might take another look at the detective books then and see if I can’t take a crack at them. :slight_smile:

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When I say learn words from reading, I mean look up kanji in a dictionary and add them to SRS. Something like HouHou is great for this, as it is both a dictionary and an SRS system.

When I first started I didn’t care for using a dictionary and thought I could just skip words I didn’t know. But I really learned almost nothing from this. Better to look up words as you go and add them to SRS. Then in a few days you can reread the passage without using a dictionary. Even if you don’t understand every last thing, you’ll at least be expanding your vocabulary.

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I would say grab something the interests you and also look at graded readers at as close to your actual level as possible. The “fun” thing will be slow going (if you are going the “I want to make sure I understand it” route) and often frustrating regardless of what you choose. The graded reader is to build your confidence and ease the frustration that the native material will bring about. This is just my advice. I do think working with native material is important when just starting, but I also think it’s important to have something aimed at language learners too. Gives a nice balance as mentioned above. Good luck!

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@tankwidow
Ohhh I see what you mean now. :laughing: Yeah, that makes sense. I’ve actually checked out Houhou and I haven’t heard a single bad thing about it, which is pretty impressive considering the diversity of opinions on the internet. Though the interface gives me a bit of a Windows 98 vibe, which isn’t necessarily bad, but I more prefer Wanikani’s look. That and I do pretty much all of my Japanese learning on my phone so I’ve had to turn down PC-only programs or non-iOS applications like Torii, which is a shame because they looked really good.
I will probably use kitsun for this though since I have it, can use it on my phone, and it also seems to be good for adding words via dictionary to a deck.

@chantellis
I think I’ll do that! There’ve been a few people recommending I at least stick with the graded readers. Originally I was going to move on from them as soon as possible, but that seems to be a bad idea. And yes, I am unfortunately in the “I want to understand it” camp. It’d be easier if my brain would let me relax and do extensive reading, but I’ve had a difficult time of it every time I’ve tried. What you suggested actually seems like the perfect combination. I’ll look up and add words to an SRS with native material, but at the same time stick with graded readers and go through them as well to build confidence. That’s one thing I noticed, is that I always felt more confident in myself after going through graded readers, but I always felt pretty down after skimming through native materials. And thanks, I’ll definitely need it! :slight_smile:

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I dropped Anki when I started focusing on WaniKani, and have only slightly started using Anki again recently. So I don’t have the experience to say for certain anything that works for me. But my future plan is:

  1. Add cards based on whatever criteria.
  2. Let leeches suspend.
  3. If I go to add a word in the future and find it’s already added as a leech, then unsuspend it.

The alternative is to determine why something is a leech, and to improve the card. I would only do this for words that I felt I needed to learn, and wouldn’t bother for word that I likely won’t encounter often. (Not that you always know which word you’ll encounter often. I encountered a new word in the title of an anime episode, then I heard the same word used in a different context in the next three episodes.)

In the end, you’ll probably want to try out a few things, and figure out what works best. (This may take time.) My main recommendation is to allow yourself to let troublesome cards be suspended for a while, so you don’t end up wasting time on problem card reviews each day.

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Please, don’t go quickly… :slight_smile: It is really worth doing all the exercises in the work book and listening to the recordings for the exercises in the main book.

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Genki does not correct itself later. What it does it to present a particular usage in one chapter and then, two or three chapters later, it will expand and you will see the particular usage as a part of a more general pattern. For example, you learn verbばよかった to express regret for things you have not done and later we learn the ば form which means the the verb is on a conditional form. So verbばよかった now can be read as “if I had done verb, it would have been good” which does not invalidate that this is a way of expressing regret. Honestly I did not like this approach in the beginning but it works very well in cementing the knowledge that you learn. HJ explanations are good but they are too much hurried. Genki is slow but gives you solid ground. In Genki, grammar and/or vocabulary that you learn in one chapter (and you learn lots of vocabulary in each chapter) keeps appearing in future chapters (be in exercises or dialogues).

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@ChristopherFritz
Makes sense, I’m planning on dropping Anki once I finish the deck I’m using in it currently, and switching over to kitsun full-time. But I know I’m dealing with leeches from my previous deck, and they’re pretty annoying. What you suggested sounds like a good idea though because sometimes it just seems like I keep revisiting the same cards over and over, and it’s only those few cards that are the issue. The rest I have no trouble learning. I’m not sure how much time they add to my reviews, though, but they probably add at least a chunk of it. I think I might take your advice and look at my leeches, and see if they’re worth trying to revisit over and over again.

@sergiop
Sorry, by quickly I meant I’m not going to go through it like I am through the HJ apps, where I am using an Anki deck alongside them, and thus my pace through HJ is dictated by how many cards I can handle adding to SRS a day alongside what I add through Wanikani. While this has ensured I have a pretty solid understanding of HJ’s grammar concepts and vocabulary, it also means that my speed has been fairly slow. With Genki, I am already doing a Genki vocabulary deck atm, though it’s a lower priority compared to my HJI deck and Wanikani, so I don’t do many cards a day. Though I am hoping to have finished the deck by the time I start Genki, or at least the cards for Genki I. With that, all I need to do will be to read the textbook and go through the exercises in the textbook and workbook. Since I will probably know a decent amount of the grammar already from going through HJ and HJI, my speed will only be limited by how much I read and how many exercises I do, so I can’t imagine it will be anywhere near as slow as my HJ pace.

And oh, I see what you mean. That’s not as bad as I was thinking, then. HJ does that too sometimes, though they also usually make it pretty clear when they first teach you something that there will be other usages or definitions, just that they won’t go into that yet. I was more thinking I’d have to like, rewire my brain in a way. I’d have learned that something is a specific way, but then be told later it’s not, which would just be frustrating. I think another reason I was worried about Genki is there were a lot of Genki people asking questions on the subreddit that I thought had been explained pretty clearly in HJ, so it sounded like Genki just didn’t explain things as well. And yeah, HJ’s lack of exercises and expectations for you to remember everything through their quizzes is its main weak point, though I think using an Anki deck alongside it helps a lot. The ones I’m using have sentence cards as well as vocabulary, so they’ve been great for getting the grammar to stick too.

Thanks for explaining though! I’m glad to hear Genki isn’t as bad as I was thinking it was. I was still going to use it since it seemed the most complete textbook resource suited for a self-learner out of all the options, but I was a bit unsure of its methods.

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Sometimes it takes me a couple of hours to do 4 pages of exercises in Genki. Writing down kanji in the beginning took me an awful lot of time but makes it easier to remember it later. Besides writing Kanji, compositing sentences for me sometimes is time consuming.

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I know you didn’t ask for grammar advice, but since you have an interest in manga, I wanted to mention that Cure Dolly’s channel on Youtube helped me understand manga grammar. The format can be a little jarring at first but if you stick with it you’ll learn a lot.

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@sergiop
Oh, that’s true yeah. And nice, it looks like you also wanted to read Japanese books back then! Hopefully, you managed to achieve that. :slight_smile: Thankfully I already get writing practice in with a handwriting keyboard I downloaded for my phone, so my writing speed shouldn’t be too bad. But the sentences are probably going to be a pain, just because I’m more used to writing out words and kanji over entire sentences. Oh well, I hope it won’t take too long at least. I’m not going to be rushing it, but I also don’t want to spend a year on each text like it looks like I’ll be doing with HJ.

@tankwidow
Oh yeah, I’ve heard of that channel! I watched a bit of a video once but it was a bit hard to get used to her voice. I’ve heard the actual content is pretty good though. I’ve also heard Tokini Andy is good too but I also only watched part of a video for him too, since I learn better through reading than videos or lectures. But I’ve heard that the Cure Dolly series is good since it teaches Japanese grammar in a more “Japanese” way, and less like a standard textbook. Not sure how true that is or not, though.

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I’ll second the recommendation for Cure dolly. She has the best explanation of grammar I’ve encountered. I’ll admit I don’t know how she compares to physical textbooks because I’ve never read one. I encountered her channel while I was just getting started with grammar and I’ve never felt the need to get a textbook. I don’t struggle with understanding grammar thanks to her. What slows me down is not knowing enough vocabulary.

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Huh, I might try watching her videos then. So far, I haven’t had serious issues with learning grammar, but my pace through HJI is fairly slow since I’m restricted by my Anki card deck and not getting overwhelmed by reviews, which means my pace on learning grammar is also slow. I didn’t want to confuse myself by studying extra grammar on the side, so I’ve mainly just been doing HJI and Wanikani atm (and Kamesame of course). But if I want to dive into reading, it might be better to study extra grammar, since that seems to be holding me back at the moment.

Her approach is similar to what a Japanese child would learn, rather than focusing on English. She also teaches a more casual grammar that you will find in manga. Genki is going to be very strict and formal.

Ahhh that makes sense then. That could be helpful to learn in conjunction with Genki then. I’ll try to watch her videos, then!

Honestly, reading any kind of prose at N5, except for the lowest-level graded readers, is going to be painful. More like deciphering than reading. A lot of what you see might not make sense without help. If you don’t mind only sorta getting the gist of things (or sometimes not even that) then give it a shot.

At N4 reading stuff like the beginner or absolute beginner book club material will be a lot easier.

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