[aDoBJG] K 💮 A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar

[pm215]

Well, I don’t want to defend what is definitely a pretty over-complicated sentence structure, but I didn’t get confused by it on first reading and I don’t think it’s actually grammatically wrong for what it’s trying to say. I think it helps a lot if you already know that suggestions, commands, etc are volitional, because then you know from the meaning that the as-clause must be attaching there and not elsewhere.

I think the text under the examples explains it a bit better – てから is about chronological order and volitional planning; so if you’re just expressing a “first this then that” sequence て is another way to phrase it. But if there’s a command, suggestion or expression of will then て doesn’t work, because it doesn’t state a strong enough link between the two parts of the sentence.

[fallynleaf]

@pm215

I think the text under the examples explains it a bit better – てから is about chronological order and volitional planning; so if you’re just expressing a “first this then that” sequence て is another way to phrase it. But if there’s a command, suggestion or expression of will then て doesn’t work, because it doesn’t state a strong enough link between the two parts of the sentence.

Yeah, I was a bit confused by that related expression note at first as well, but it made more sense to me when I looked at the example sentences and found the ones marked with an * to read really strangely to me, haha. It seemed to me that から is needed there to sort of separate out the actions and clarify them because otherwise it feels like the speaker’s volition is also getting applied to the て verb portion of the sentence, which just doesn’t make sense with those words.

In [1]a for instance, the suggestion/invitation part doesn’t apply to finishing studying; it’s to play tennis together afterward. So it’s using から to mark the jumping off point for when the suggestion occurs: “Starting from when we finish studying, let’s play tennis.” If you don’t have から in there, it’s not clear exactly what the sentence is asking because the て is trying to connect to something else, but there’s nothing for it to connect to.

I think the confusing part is the volitional part, honestly. That keeps throwing a wrench in my own understanding, haha, because there’s a lot of grammar that is only used with volitional verbs, or which can’t be used with volitional verbs, and I don’t really think about things in terms of volition, so it can be hard to remember to take that into account when forming sentences.

For sure they could have worded this one a lot more clearly, though.

[helloorange]

Looks like several folks have already chimed in, but I just wanted to add that I had the same issue with that sentence. I had to reread it a few times and break it into chunks because it. was. not. computing through the first read.

[Akashelia]

@fallynleaf

Has anyone else seen instances along the lines of examples (c) through (g) anywhere in the wild?

Here is an example of V + かわりに in the wild (from One Piece), which I think matches the “to make up for it” examples:

[fallynleaf]

けれども

I don’t feel like I see this one terribly often in pro wrestling. The informal variants are much more common! I also have a tendency not to translate it as “although” because I feel like that can kind of sound stiffer in English ? It sounds a bit stilted in the context of pro wrestling, at least. So I often translate it as “but” to make the sentence feel more natural. Maybe I should try to use “although” for the more formal, longer form of けれども, though ? I feel like “although” has a more formal connotation in English, compared to “but.”

@polv

Also, が2 isn’t mentioned at all.

Yeah, this surprised me as well! I went back to compare to the が2 entry, and I noticed that it specifies that けれども differs from が in that with けれども, S1 is a subordinate clause and S2 is a main clause, whereas with が, both S1 and S2 are independent clauses.

I definitely learned けど as essentially “plain style が”, though I don’t know how technically correct that is, haha. I looked it up again in Minna no Nihongo, and lesson 20 said: “けど works the same way as が and is often used in conversation”. So that’s slightly different information than what ADoBJG gives, since it connects けど to けれども, which has a slightly different distinction from が.

Then again, I don’t think normal people really make the subordinate/coordinate distinction when picking conjunctions for their sentences, so maybe it’s a case where common usage has sort of ignored what is technically grammatically correct…

There is only one けれども in my Tokyo Joshi Pro Wrestling translations! This is after Wakana Uehara beat her fellow rookie Himawari in a singles match on 2023.02.11:

Hard mode: here’s the video (the part quoted below starts around 0:45). As usual, transcript is from shupro, and the translation is mine and might contain errors.

上原「（デビュー約1カ月での初勝利、長く感じた？）デビューしてからはけっこうすぐだったと思うんですけれども、夢プロレスの企画をきっかけで始めたんですけども、その時にも本当に悔しい思いをして、それでプロレスを続けたいと思ったので、その悔しい過程があるので、それを考えるとちょっと長かったなと思うんですけど、これからまた後輩も増えるので、これから切磋琢磨して頑張っていきたいなっていう風に思います」

(You got your first win about a month after your debut, did it feel like a long time?)

Uehara: “I think it was pretty soon after I debuted, but I started when the Yume Pro Wrestling project began, and I felt a lot of frustration at that time, so I wanted to continue wrestling. So I think there was a period of frustration, and when I think about that, it maybe felt like a long time. But we’re getting more and more juniors, so I think I have to really apply myself and work diligently from now on.”

(There’s a けども in there, too, haha)

The only けれど in my translations is actually in the same Sakisama example I’ve already shared multiple times! So that variation doesn’t appear to be very common in this setting either.

けども is a bit more common! I found 5 uses in my 2023 document, including the one above, and 1 from last year (also from Wakana, actually)

Here's a second example, this time from Saki Akai after she and Yuki Arai lost the tag team titles on 2023.01.04:

Hard mode: here’s the video.

赤井「今回マックス・ジ・インペイラーと、ハイディ選手とやってみて、自分もキャリア9年なんで、いろんな選手とやってきた方なんですけど。あのタイプ初めてで。今回ベルトはなくなったんですけども、新年早々こういう思いをさせてくれてそういう意味では対戦相手には感謝してます。優希ちゃんにこと心配だったんですけど、試合後の目を見て、全然火は消えてないなと思ったんで、新年早々うちらに火を着けさせてくれて、そういう意味では感謝です」

Akai: “Today we faced Max the Impaler and Heidi. In my nine year career, I have fought a lot of different kinds of wrestlers, but this was my first time facing anyone like that. We lost the belts this time, but I’m grateful to our opponents in the sense that they gave us that experience early in the new year. I was worried about Yuki-chan, but after the match, I saw in her eyes that the fire hadn’t gone out at all, so they lit a fire within us at the beginning of the year, and for that I am grateful.”

けど, in contrast, is all over the place, haha. In 2023 alone, there are 495 uses of it in my translation document so far (though a few of those are words that contain けど, like the above examples. The vast, vast majority are just けど, though).

Here are a few けど's from my most recent translation, which is for a show that happened on 2023.05.27. This is from Mahiro Kiryu and Aja Kong's post-match comments:

Hard mode: here’s the video.

アジャ「上福の地元ってことだったので、結果花を持たせる形になってしまいましたけど、私はホントに地元とかどうでもいいので。完全に潰す気でいたんですけどね。なかなか潰れないな。悔しいけど、しょうがない。けど今日は上福の地元っていうのともうひとつ、桐生真弥はザコじゃないってところを見せてもらおうかなと」

Aja: “Since it was Kamifuku’s hometown, I let her have the credit, but I really don’t care about this place. I was going to smash it to bits. But it’s not very destroyed, is it? It’s disappointing, but it can’t be helped. Today, I’m showing you Kamifuku’s hometown and one other thing, which is that Mahiro Kiryu isn’t a weakling.”

[pm215]

@fallynleaf

(There’s a けども in there, too, haha)

…and a けど ! It’s interesting how the reply starts at the most formal end of the spectrum with けれども and then descends to けども and finally けど, all in the same sentence. (The bit with けれども is also the part that’s most directly contradicting the interviewer, which might also be influencing the choice; the others are more like “x, but y” linking of the speaker’s thoughts.)

[MissDagger]

@helloorange Thank you for chiming in. I’m glad I’m not the only one who couldn’t make sense of it.

And thanks for the additional comments and help in trying to show me how the sentence works and such, @pm215 and @fallynleaf.

@fallynleaf

I definitely learned けど as essentially “plain style が”, though I don’t know how technically correct that is, haha. I looked it up again in Minna no Nihongo, and lesson 20 said: “けど works the same way as が and is often used in conversation”. So that’s slightly different information than what ADoBJG gives, since it connects けど to けれども, which has a slightly different distinction from が.

As a different data point, I definitely learnt けど as the most informal version of けれども. Not sure if that is from Genki or Japanese class though. And I don’t own a Genki book anymore to check.

[MissDagger]

Week 12 is here with こと1 to ことにする, 7 entries this week.

This is only the official notice of week 12 starting. Nothing special, feel free to discuss any K entries at any time.

[Akashelia]

Shout-out to you for organizing this club, very happy to be doing this reading, would have never happened by myself, and it’s a lot of fun to do it with everyone and loving the thread structure that you have chosen!

[MissDagger]

Thanks. It would be nothing without you guys and many people came up with good organizational ideas.

[fallynleaf]

こと

Since we’re starting the ことs, I thought I’d share this page from Tobira, which I found massively helpful for understanding it, especially the sentence pattern examples at the end:

I’ll look for some more specific examples maybe after I’ve read the whole set of entries, haha. I feel like it’ll be easier to just look for them all at once.

[javerend]

Realized I have been forgetting to set the last few new weeks as tracking whoooooops

catching up on the threads, thanks for posting so many good examples everyone

[Akashelia]

So this week is about こと, but what I found interesting was an example sentence page 195, it’s the first time that I see たしかです and not たしか being used as たしかに (あの人がいい人であることはたしかです). Not sure if it’s because I haven’t read that much native material yet, or if it’s also an usage that was more common in 1985 than it is now? The same sentence uses である, which is described by Bunpro as being very formal / literary.

Very interesting note on page 196, that the difference between の and こと is probably due to the sound they make, actually this will greatly help me remember which one is the one that emphatizes and which one doesn’t.

[pm215]

I don’t think たしか-as-a-noun Is either super-rare or particularly formal; it’s just less common than たしかに. ( I suspect that in English too it’s more common to want to say “certainly” rather than “X is certain” or “it’s certain that X”.)

Here’s a random example from the internet of use in a less formal sentence:

宣伝効果が高いのはたしかだ。

[2000kanji]

I have learned in this week’s reading that getting married is not a volitional decision (distinction ことになる・ことにする on p. 205 and example (c) on p. 203)

[fallynleaf]

けど / が

@fallynleaf

Yeah, this surprised me as well! I went back to compare to the が2 entry, and I noticed that it specifies that けれども differs from が in that with けれども, S1 is a subordinate clause and S2 is a main clause, whereas with が, both S1 and S2 are independent clauses.

I definitely learned けど as essentially “plain style が”, though I don’t know how technically correct that is, haha. I looked it up again in Minna no Nihongo, and lesson 20 said: “けど works the same way as が and is often used in conversation”. So that’s slightly different information than what ADoBJG gives, since it connects けど to けれども, which has a slightly different distinction from が.

@MissDagger

As a different data point, I definitely learnt けど as the most informal version of けれども. Not sure if that is from Genki or Japanese class though. And I don’t own a Genki book anymore to check.

Bunpro enters the fray!

@ZenMaster

For Example:
けど and が both mean ‘But’ In english, but let’s check out the hints for these!

• けど ‘One of the most casual ways to express but, when wanting to highlight contrasting pieces of information.’
• が ‘A formal, short way of expressing an alternative view.’

As you can tell from these examples, the focus of each of these words are put on different places. けど focuses on ‘contrasting information’ and is ‘casual’, while が focuses on ‘alternative views’, and is ‘formal’. By being able to see these differences, we believe that it will make it easier for students to identify the difference in usage and their nuances.

[fallynleaf]

ことが出来る

Just a quick note on this one, because I was a bit surprised that the entry didn’t mention this. Under related expression, it talks about how られる2 can replace ことが出来る without a change in basic meaning. It says that the difference between the shorter and longer potential form is one of style; namely, the shorter version is more colloquial and less formal than the longer one. The formality difference was news to me! Though not exactly unexpected, considering other trends in Japanese…

The thing I wanted to point out, though, is that られる can be ambiguous because some verbs share the same form for the passive form and the potential. In those cases, ことが出来る can eliminate ambiguity. I’ve wondered if you could theoretically use ことが出来る with a passive verb to indicate passivity and potential at the same time, but I’m not sure how natural this is, haha. Has anyone ever seen this in native media?

[Myria]

@fallynleaf

Has anyone ever seen this in native media?

I went looking for some examples on Google, and it seems that it’s possible (this is from a book review by 朝日新聞):

自宅で看取られることができるなんて、思ってもいませんでした。

But it was tricky to figure out which of the hits were simply grammatically wrong (double potential) and which ones were actually passive. This one, for example, doesn’t seem right:

温かみのある会場で、緑を感じられることができる式場

Or this one:

私たちが支援団体に対して寄付をすることで、子どもたちの環境を良い方向に変え、教育を受けられる機会を増やしてあげられることができるのです。

[javerend]

Little late on this one but I have been sorta looking for one since I read this discussion, and a 確か popped up in this week’s ouran reading.

Ouran ch2

From probably the one character who’s not trying to be speaking particularly fancy, too.

[pm215]

That one’s fun because, unlike たしか the noun or たしかに the adverb, it’s acting to indicate decreased certainty about the statement compared to the sentence without it (“probably; I think; if I remember correctly”).