10 Minute Biographies Chapter 6 (Absolute Beginner Book Club)

I think just a typo here. It’s よこしなさい. I took this to be from 寄越す/よこす - to send.

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ベロッキオは、レオナルドの仕事ぶりに感心して告げました。
Verrocchio told Leonardo that he admired the way he worked:

I read that literally as:

Verrocchio admired the way Leonardo worked and told him: (quoted text after)

I’m not so confident in my translation though. My only understanding of the て form in this case is that it chains verbs together to express multiple actions. I’d really like to hear how you approached that one.

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(Warning: this post is completely wrong, please ignore everything it says.)

The -te form can be used to mark indirect quotes so @2000kanji’s translation is the one I’d go with here as well.

“「と」 and 「って」 are interchangeable. However, 「って」 is more casual and can be used only in spoken language. Here, we’re following the formal expression.” – I guess Wasabi is wrong in that regard, and / or the authors of this children’s book deliberately opted to go for a more informal approach than usual in writing elsewhere?

(The -te form also does a gazillion other things, like connecting verbs to auxiliaries.)

This is not the te-form but the quoting particle と and it’s casual version って. So I think @catfather is right. The direct speech referring to the announcing follows on the next page in the book.

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I’m not sure if that if that grammar form applies here. The て form I’m referring to is 感心して and if that were using that grammar form, I’d expect it to be on 告げて.

If the sentence were:

ベロッキオは、告げました。I’d translate as Verrocchio told (him).

But as ベロッキオは、レオナルドの仕事ぶりに感心して告げました. I’d translate as, Verrocchio, admiring Leonardo’s working manner, told (him).

I have a feeling 感心して告げました works like 持ってきました in that 持って describes the manner in which one comes (they came holding, or they brought). This one is sort of comparable 感心にして聞く.

My impression is that the -te particle will always “glomp onto” a directly preceding verb (which has to be there because of verb order), which will effectively result in that verb being conjugated into its regular -te form, even if that is not formally what is happening. Am I overlooking something here?

I mean, 感心し isn’t exactly a regular, independent verb form.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean. As far as I know the て from the て-form is not a particle. But と and って are both particles used to mark for example indirect speech. These particles follow the plain form of a verb. So in the case of 感心する you would put the particle just behind the verb: 感心するって. But here we have the て-form of する, which is して. It has nothing to do with indirect speech, it’s used to connect sentences and can be used to give a reason or describe the manner in which something is done.

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Reading ahead, the exact translation of this -te clause is not all that relevant anyway:

a) Admiring Leonardo’s way of working, Verrochio told him: “There is nothing more I can teach you.”
b) Verrochio told Leonardo he admired his work: “There is nothing more I can teach you.”

Those two sentences ultimately mean the same thing.

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Ah, yes, I think that’s where my misunderstanding lies. TBH I wasn’t able to find any actual example sentences of the -tte particle in use online, just descriptions of how it was to be used.

Sorry for the confusion.

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I realize that they mean the about the same thing. My goal was to figure out if it was a way of saying “He told Leonardo he was doing X”. In this context, either way is right. I just try to read it more generally to see the thought process of the translation. We do have the entire day to discuss a few sentences so why not nitpick a little :slightly_smiling_face:? I don’t want to make anyone feel self conscious though, I just like discussing this stuff :grin:

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First of all, I am glad that my translation was the starting point for such an intense discussion. This is what a book club is meant for.

After reading the discussion on the last sentence I would say that the original text rather says that first Verrocchio admired Leonardo’s work and then told him … (that he had nothing more to teach him).

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p. 89

「もう、お前に教えることは何もない。」
“Now, there is nothing more that I can teach you.”
「何を言うのです、先生。僕はまだ……。」
“What do you say, teacher. I am still …”
「お前は天才だ。ここを出て、自分の仕事をしなさい。」
“You are a genius. Leave from here and work on your own.”
ベロッキオは、もとを離れたレオナルドは、ミラノという大きな町に行きました。
After leaving Verrocchio, Leonardo went to a large town called Milan.
そこで、絵や彫刻を作って、評判になりました。
So, he created paintings and sculptures, and gained a reputation.

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Isn’t this そこで here referring to the place, meaning „there“? :thinking:

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In the Apple books version the fourth sentence is.

ベロっキオの下を放れたレオナルドは、ミランという大きな町に行きました。
Freed from being under the guidance of Verrocchio, he headed for a big town called Milan.

下 seemed like the best candidate to me. I used this one as a reference for もと see the definition for 下 down the page.

I’m not sure why they would make that change or which version is more up to date but it’s possible の下 makes it more obvious what the instance of もと is, or maybe yours is the more up to date version. Mine was published in 2011 and last updated in 2012.

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My version is the book from 2019.

I took the same definition for もと as you did, only I looked at definition #5 in Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary, which is the same as #4 in Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary.

There are two inconsistencies in もと: - Jisho.org

  • Although jisho does not say ‘usually written with kana alone’, it uses kana in the example phrase for #5.
  • Although it says at 元 #5 ‘only applies to 元’, it gives the same definition for 下 #4.
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p. 90

ある日、ミラノの町を治める公爵という偉い人から、修道院の食堂の壁に、絵を書くように頼まれました。
One day, he was asked by Milan’s reigning duke, a great man, to paint a picture on the wall of a monastery’s dining hall.
キリストと十二人の弟子が最後の食事をする、『最後の晩餐』という場面です。
It is the scene of the “Last Supper”, that is the last meal that Christ had with his twelve disciples.
食事をするようすをうまく書くために、レオナルドはレストランに行きました。
In order to skillfully paint the circumstances of the meal, Leonardo went to a restaurant.

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I see. I actually like your definition better.

Congrats on 60, btw

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Thank you, there is much left to do (the level 60 items plus tons of leeches, vocab, grammar, listening and … far off … speaking).

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I spotted that 偉い人 can be a fixed expression with the definition: celebrated personage; big-wig; person in a high position.

I learned recently that ように言う means - to tell (somebody) to (do something)​. ように頼む isn’t in Jisho as a set phrase, but I assume it’s a similar structure - to ask someone to do something.

Also congrats on getting to level 60!

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Yes, it’s similar. And it’s often used as てくれるように頼む thought that’s not the case here.

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