魔女の宅急便 (Kiki’s Delivery Service) Discussion Thread: Chapter 4

[Peterbond]

Hey, going more gradually throughout the week. I feel like it will be a lot better for me.

Read two pages this morning and somethings tripped me up.

きょうも朝から、ことばにもならないいわけを、心の中でくりかえしているのでした

This middle part of this sentence ことばにもならないいわけを really throws me off. I cut put together some of it, I parsed it out. But I still feel like I’m grasping at straws when mutiple particles are linked together. You know? Like when it’s one particle I’m like 100% on what’s going on. But here with the にも I don’t really know what I’m supposed to be doing with this.

Later there’s this sentence,
いちに帰ることもできないわけではありません、
はずかしのをがまんできれば…

Which I’m translating as like…It’s not that I can’t go home, it would be embarrassing. But honestly the second line I don’t understand. I understand の is normalizing the adjective but I don’t understand how we are using the verb できれば in this situation? Does it mean like you could feel embarrassed?

その大きな町にちょうどあたしはいるんだもの.

This sentence I mostly get I just wanted to double check. Kiki’s just saying it’s like just a big town and she’s in it. Like it’s about her perspective about being in this larger city. Side note I’m really encountering this もの thing a lot more reading. It’s very common, and I’m noting it as indicating like the reason, the situation, I feel like it means a lot of things. I’ve been doing some studying about it. Interesting.

Happy to be reading, going to bike out to a 大仏 and then come back later. Hope everyone is enjoying their weekend.

[seanblue]

@Peterbond

This middle part of this sentence ことばにもならないいわけを really throws me off. I cut put together some of it, I parsed it out. But I still feel like I’m grasping at straws when mutiple particles are linked together. You know? Like when it’s one particle I’m like 100% on what’s going on. But here with the にも I don’t really know what I’m supposed to be doing with this.

Do you know what it would be saying if も wasn’t in there? Often も adds the nuance of “even”. So in this case, An excuse/explanation that doesn’t even become words. (Do keep in mind that I’m translating this with no context, so it could still be off.)

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@Peterbond

Later there’s this sentence,
いちに帰ることもできないわけではありません、
はずかしのをがまんできれば…

Which I’m translating as like…It’s not that I can’t go home, it would be embarrassing. But honestly the second line I don’t understand. I understand の is normalizing the adjective but I don’t understand how we are using the verb できれば in this situation? Does it mean like you could feel embarrassed?

I’m assuming this should be うちに and はずかしいのを. For the second line, you’re skipping over がまん in your translation. It’s if she can bear the embarrassment. As for the usage, がまん is a する verb, and できる is the potential form of する.

Also, and again it’s hard to say for sure without context, this looks like a case of the sentence being inverted. It seems to read more straightforwardly if you look at it as はずかしいのをがまんできれば、うちに帰ることもできないわけではありません. That would be the technically grammatically correct way of saying it. But of course, flipping the sentence around can add more flair. It’s not like I can’t just go home. If I can bear the embarrassment that is.

@ChristopherFritz I’m really curious how the two English versions translated this section.

[Peterbond]

@seanblue

Do you know what it would be saying if も wasn’t in there?

First, thanks for the great reply. I actually don’t. Still struggled with this sentence at first I thought it was なる conjguated than I thought it was like the なら (if that’s the case blah blah) grammar point, but after reading your post its clear I was right in that it’s ならない. So honestly here I’m completely a drift. Why is there a second い in front of the わけ.

I’m reading it as like, saying in an explanatory way, It’s not like it’s being said.

@seanblue

For the second line, you’re skipping over がまん in your translation

This! Thank you! I had never seen がまん and thought it was an adverb for some reason. Ill have to more closely check my dictionary next time. Thanks for clearing that up!

[ChristopherFritz]

@seanblue

@ChristopherFritz I’m really curious how the two English versions translated this section.

I suppose I should start reading chapter four so I can get to this point… Off I go to do that just now…

… … …

Okay, caught up.

ことばにも line

Edition	Line
Japanese	「だってさ、あたし、だってさ……」と、きょうも朝から、ことばにもならないいいわけを、心の中でくりかえしているのでした。
English (2003)	Since morning, she had been repeating to herself all kinds of lame excuses, but none of them made sense. “But I just can’t… I’m not…”
English (2020)	All morning, Kiki repeated half-hearted excuses in her head. “Well, because… I just… I mean…”

The next line probably makes more sense just by seeing the line before it, so I’ve included that:

うちに帰る line

Edition	Line
Japanese	このままこの町で、人間のふりして暮らすこともできるのです。でなけりゃ、うちに帰ることもできないわけではありません、はずかしいのをがまんできれば……。
English (2003)	She could try living in this town and pretending she wasn’t a witch. If she couldn’t stand it, she could go back home, even though it would be pretty embarrassing.
English (2020)	She could stay in town and pretend to be human, or if she swallowed her price, she could even go home.

I’m not used to seeing double negatives in Japanese, so that one took a bit for me to parse through and understand! (I didn’t look at the English releases until after I’d worked out the Japanese as best I could.)

@Peterbond

So honestly here I’m completely a drift. Why is there a second い in front of the わけ.

This is where I like to step back and look at all the pieces in play.

First, I’ll ignore the のでした portion. The clause before that ends in a verb:

• くりかえしている: to repeat

We have the action of something being repeated.

The particle で attaches to a word to tell us where the action of the verb takes place:

• 心の中: (within) one’s mind

Something is being repeated in the mind, in one’s head, as thoughts rather than spoken words.

The particle を tells us what the action of the verb was done to. Specifically, it’s what was repeated:

• いいわけ: excuse

Here’s where I’m a bit uncertain of the parsing. Is 「ことばにも」 part of a clause ending in 「いいわけ」, or is it part of the clause ending in 「くりかえしている」?

I went with the former. My explanation is just supposition on my part, so if I make any mistakes, I look forward to anyone correcting me so I may learn better.

This parsing gives:

• （ことばにもならない）いいわけをくりかえしている。

In this case, the main verb of this inner clause is:

• ならない: to not become

The particle に gives us a destination. If something is “becoming”, what is the destination of that action, the thing it becomes? If something is “not becoming”, what is the destination, the thing it does not become? The に particle here is on:

• ことば

We have something not becoming words.

What about the も? I’m no good at explaining why, but I parse this 「…も…ない」 as “not even” as in “(did) not even become words”. It was reasons that couldn’t even be formed into words. I can understand why the 2020 English translation calls them “half-hearted excuses”.

[ChristopherFritz]

I’m quite excited to see 知らんぷり show up, because that came up in a Detective Conan story I read recently. I’m reading the English release of the manga, and the solution necessitated the Japanese word 知らんぷり be spoken, and that really makes it hard to get a sense for how it must have sounded in the original. I also had trouble trying to understand the word in that English translation as it was rendered as “shiranpuri”, and which didn’t sound anything like any Japanese I know.

Now I can see that it’s 知らない + ふり (+ する), and means “appear to not know” similar to how 死んだフリする means “to play dead” (thank you ごちうさ volume 1 for teaching me that one).

It’s always nice when I can tie multiple things I’ve read together like this.

[mrahhal]

@ChristopherFritz

Here’s where I’m a bit uncertain of the parsing. Is 「ことばにも」 part of a clause ending in 「いいわけ」, or is it part of the clause ending in 「くりかえしている」?

([ことばにもならない]いいわけ)をくりかえしている as you said.

Usually, it’ll be the shortest path it can attach to, but it can depend on context. But here for example, I can’t see it ever meaning the latter in this context (at the very least, commas could be introduced to guide your parsing when it’s not intuitive). XにもならないY is a quite common structure and it’s always parsed like this.

[ChristopherFritz]

@mrahhal

But here for example, I can’t see it ever meaning the latter in this context

That was my instinct as well.

I run everything in Kiki’s through a parser to help visualize sentences, and this one comes out how I expect it to:

However, since I had the forums up in a browser, I had instead dropped the sentence into an online copy of the parser, which is an older software version:

That threw me off, and I struggled a bit with “this reading doesn’t make sense to me”.

And, when there may be two potential readings, one must go with, as you say, the one that makes sense in context.

[NicoleIsEnough]

@ChristopherFritz

one must go with, as you say, the one that makes sense in context.

Or even drop the one that doesn’t make sense even without context Because I have no idea what a ならない言い訳 would be tbh…

[ChristopherFritz]

@NicoleIsEnough

Because I have no idea what a ならない言い訳 would be tbh…

Clearly it relates to something not spoken due to being known from context

Sometimes I get too focused on the trees to take notice of the forest.

[Shannon-8]

I love so many things about this post!! Your breakdown was EXACTLY what I needed, because I was hung up on わけ (not knowing not was reason/excuse; I can’t look at EVERYTHING at once!).

I, too, was happy to see 知らんぷり! I have a stupid mnemonic for this which is “it’s a shampoo that lets you fake amnesia”.

[seanblue]

@Shannon-8

because I was hung up on わけ (not knowing not was reason/excuse; I can’t look at EVERYTHING at once!).

That’s actually what いいわけ (the whole thing) means in this sentence. And it be clear, this is 言い訳, just so you can see the kanji for it. わけ can be hard to understand and translate in general though, especially when you haven’t seen it much in the real world.

[Peterbond]

@ChristopherFritz

This is where I like to step back and look at all the pieces in play.

Thank you so much, this post was so enlightening. It makes a lot more sense when I understand that the を particle is linking it to the verb くりかえしている past the comma.

Honestly, I’m still fuzzy on the も meaning not even in this situation, but I feel like I understand it and it’s something that will become clear over reading it more often. mrahhal said it’s a common structure so I’m going to my eye out for XにもならないY going forward.

Thanks again!

Sitting down for my reading today… might post later if I’m feeling cute.

[ChristopherFritz]

@Peterbond

mrahhal said it’s a common structure so I’m going to my eye out for XにもならないY going forward.

Good news! It shows up again six more times!

…all in book six.

(Wait, I have book six? I thought my e-book bundle purchase was just the first five books. I just ran a text search on my Kiki e-book folder, and there it is:)

Matches

(I think one of those is a false positive, so maybe five times in book six?)

I suppose I should get to reading, since I’m waaaay behind on my goal of something like 50 sentences per day. I’ve completed…a few sentences.

[Sharpevil]

Whoa, lively in here! @ChristopherFritz already answered my first question of today with the “このままこの町で” bit, and I my second was answered waaaay up at the beginning of the thread with the “頭だけちょっと出して” bit, so that’s nice.

Only read up to the third page so far… Whoops. And there are 14 pages in the section this time, so that gives me… Five nights including tonight to read 11 pages. Well, I suppose I’m sure to have a night where I feel like reading an extra page. For now, from page 1.5 through page 3 of the chapter:

• 荷物っていえないようなもの……小さなものとか、いろいろ - Is Kiki saying She can’t carry large things like luggage, but only various small things? I read the first part as “Things you can’t call luggage”, which doesn’t really jive.

• それでしたら、ほんのおすそわけでけっこうなんです - This is Kiki saying that just a small bit would be fine for her services, right? Osono-san seems to have two quotes in a row, if I’m understanding this correctly.

[ChristopherFritz]

Here are the images for chapter four. If you’ve seen Studio Ghibli’s movie, there are no spoilers here. If not, beware. I’ve hidden each individual image under a details tag with a generic title.

Chapter 4 Images

Delivery Service Shop Sign

Delivery Customer

Delivery Item

House in the Woods

[ChristopherFritz]

@Sharpevil

I read the first part as “Things you can’t call luggage”, which doesn’t really jive.

I think you have it about right. I read it as, she says what she can carry (運ぶものは) is anything (なんでも), items you wouldn’t really call luggage (荷物っていえないようなもの)…things like small items (小さなものとか), various things (いろいろ).

@Sharpevil

This is Kiki saying that just a small bit would be fine for her services, right? Osono-san seems to have two quotes in a row, if I’m understanding this correctly.

Correct. This hearkens back to chapter 3 where Kiki’s mother talked about おすそわけ. Prior to Kiki’s line, Osono suggests that she could use Kiki’s new service, and asks about setting a fee.

[mrahhal]

@Sharpevil

two quotes in a row

Yeah, and that’s fine since there’s narration in between.

[Peterbond]

Just finished up three pages for the day…lots of dialogue and was pretty smooth sailing. A few parts I had to work through but nothing too chewy.

[Aislin]

@ChristopherFritz
This time I want to ask about English translations.

• There is a pun about おとどけ屋さん and おとぼけ屋さん sounding similar. What did they do with it?

• Also, I’ve just learned from the original thread that Kiki’s phone number is also meaningful. Did “こんないい番号の電話がひけたのでした” survive the translation?

[Shannon-8]

@ChristopherFritz

I suppose I should get to reading, since I’m waaaay behind on my goal of something like 50 sentences per day. I’ve completed…a few sentences.

Same. I was doing this ALL DAY! sigh

Another 'Shannon's Stupid' Mnemonic

This is how I remember
“Could you please repeat that explanation again?”
Bruce Willis in Diehard ‘Yippee-Ki-Yay’
聞き返す(ききかえすto ask again, to ask for a repeated explanation)
The Bruce Willis “dismount” M–F- is the memorable part for me, as a former tutor/teacher. LOL