霧のむこうのふしぎな町 | Week 5 Discussion 🌬 🏘

Just remember that the こと refers to the showing up itself, not to the person/thing that shows up. (It can get quite confusing, especially mediated through an extra language!)

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A really early heads-up today (because I remembered ^^):

We will have our weekly Read-Aloud session tonight despite the break! We will read Week 5 once again, and will try to sort out more questions :slight_smile:
The session happens on Discord as usual, and starts in a bit more than 4 hours. Please refer to the home thread’s OP for details concerning how it starts (in your timezone) and where it takes place (for those of you who have not been to the Discord server before).

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Guess I missed my opportunity to ask during the reading this morning but had a question about how this grammar worked…Feels kind of like a dumb question because it seems like I understand what’s basically happening but cannot seem to find anything where を is used quite like this…

Don’t think there are any spoilers here … Page 48
リナがぶどうのかご
ジョンはキャベツとレタスを短いうでになんとかかかえこみ、
イッちゃんはにんじん⋆ねぎ⋆ほうれんそうをこわきにかかえこんだ。

If there are typos…sorry :wink: these are long sentences… Hopefully not… The part I’m wondering about is in bold…Specifically the first を。The other two sentences the verb is nice and clear with を marking the object. But it’s a little strange that the first of the three (mini-sentences) that there is no verb…it seems to be more like a “with”/“and”

“Rina with the basket of grapes and … As for John…”

Probably a silly question and I hope I haven’t asked this somewhere before on a different book, but does someone have a little more why/how を is used this way in the first mini-sentence? Thanks!

I think this is what you‘d call an ellipsis in English. The mini-sentences use the same verb (especially the first and third, it seems), and so the author does not repeat it. The first を should have the same verb after it as the second one.

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I don’t think that really makes sense here. The second and third を are marking different foods, while the first is marking ぶどうのかご.

This is sort of what I thought…but…then

I agree with sean…why not just use a single verb for all 3 and use the を at the second line also…something is different here that I’m missing from a grammar perspective (I think)…

…this is why I asked the question I the first place… :wink:

Oh, you know what? After re-reading it I think @NicoleRauch is right. I misread the final verb. It’s just stating what each person is holding.

I do find it odd that the first doesn’t get an explicit verb, but then for the second and third the same verb is repeated (just in 連用形 for the first to continue the sentence).

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It’s not a grammar thing. It’s indeed an ellipsis as @NicoleRauch said. Basically, it’s just to avoid having three times the same verb in the sentence. The author could have dropped the second occurrence as well, but it would have been awkward because of the なんとか.

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That’s why I asked…guess I’ll just accept it as odd … part of being in the misty valley I suppose :wink:

That’s the missing piece…woo hoo! Thank you so much!

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Feel kind of dumb asking this one too…but what the heck…this long sentence is kind of brutal…and then the English version of the book somehow feels different…(which means I’m probably doing something wrong)

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いまでは、リナは、この赤道直下でも一番すずしいところを見つけ出して、何時間でもおしゃべりすることができるようになっていた

(assuming I didn’t make typos)
I ended up with:

いまでは、= Nowadays / Currently

リナは、 = As for Rina

この赤道直下でも一番すずしいところを見つけ出して、
この赤道直下 - this below the equator
でも - yet/still
一番すずしい = coolest
ところを = place + particle
見つけ出して、to discoved and

何時間でもおしゃべりすることができるようになっていた
何時間 = how many hours
でも = but
おしゃべりする = chatting / talking
ことができる = to be able to do things
ようになっていた = to reach the point

I ended up with (this isn’t great English) but something like this:

Nowadays, as for Rina, this below the equator (place), yet (she) discovered the coolest spot and but how many hours (were spent) chatting to be able to (find the spot).

Sorry…these longer sentences get me all confused. The gist of what I got was that Rina found the coolest place in the room but it took many many hours while chatting in order to find it. That’s a bit different from the English version of the book, which makes me think I’m wrong:

The English version (blurred just in case):

Lina eventually discovered the coolest spot in “The Equatorial Zone,” and now she spent hours there, chatting.

The way I read it was that it took many hours trying to find the coolest spot while the English book implies she found the coolest spot and spent many hours enjoying it. Not a huge difference but there is a difference in meaning. Can someone break this down and explain what I’m doing wrong?

Thanks! …I don’t fee like I’m ever gonna catch up :frowning:

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をしゃべりする ことが できるようになった
This dekiru youni is related to the shaberi suru thing through the “kotoga”.

While すずしいところ を 見つけた
This “wo mitsuketa” is related to the tokoro part.

So the book is right :eyes:

Let’s have a look at this:

A place, followed by で, strongly indicates that those two belong together :slight_smile:
So this means “At this ‘Under the Equator’-place”, I guess.
I don’t have a good explanation for the remaining も other than that it’s some sort of emphasis - anybody else know more here?

This is not infinitive. The actual tense of the verb is invisible because of the te-form but it usually follows the tense of the main verb, so it’s past tense: she discovered.

This belongs together and means something like “uncounable hours” or “so-and-so many hours”.

In my head this gives a better translation if I take the second expression literally, i.e.

おしゃべりすることが - the chatting (こと is a nominalizer here for the verb)
できる - to be able to
followed by your
ようになっていた = to reach the point
altogether means “reached the point of being able to do chatting” or simpler “could chat” :slight_smile:

Only things appearing earlier in a sentence can modify things later in a sentence, therefore the “finding” is not in range of being modified by the “many hours” - if you know what I mean. Also, the separation with the て-form is very hard and clear - you can basically cut the sentence there and look at the two parts in isolation.

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@elisac Thanks for trying to help me. :blush: Sadly I’m not that good at Japanese yet :confused: and needed the detailed explanation @NicoleRauch gave.

Especially like the sentence parsing hints! :wink: Will be helpful going forward.

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I’m glad @NicoleRauch could give you a more detailed explanation, it’s somewhat difficult to explain grammar rules in English for me :sweat_smile:so I’m not very detailed when trying to help :sweat_smile: I’m happy to read detailed explanations too :laughing:

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p51 – ベッドもあるにはあるのだが

Wot does this mean?

p52 – 食べなせえ = 食べなさい?

p53 – だが、おれの昼食がはいらなくなるほど食べちゃいけねえ。-- uuhh?

My understanding is that あるにはある is an expression that basically translates to something like “as for existing, it exists” (source)

In this case, this refers to the fact that even though there’s a bed in the room, it is occupied by medicine bottles (so it can’t be really used as a bed). So, a bed exists, but in a certain way, it doesn’t.

This is how I interpret the sentence:

だが => however
おれの昼食 => my lunch
はいらなくなるほど => 入らなく + なる +ほど => to the degree (ほど) that you will become (なる) unable to insert (this refers to inserting food into your stomach, to eat)
食べちゃいけねえ => 食べてはいけない => you shouldn’t eat.

Putting them together:

”However, you shouldn’t eat (this) to the point you won’t be able to eat lunch”

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back in the book again!

since no one asked…or I didn’t see it asked anywhere here goes…again seems like a dumb question but eh…I’m so behind not going to bother blurring this anymore :slight_smile: not really a spoiler if I’m the only one this behind…

Page 52 (edit - sorry forgot)
トケの店のやつでさあ。
I gather this is to make but can’t tell if this is やる (slang suru) or if it’s a dialectally version of 作る…

can someone clear this up?
Thanks!

I don’t see anything resembling やる or 作る. Are you confused by やつ, which can mean “thing”? It would also help me be sure of the full meaning if I could look up context from a page number.

sorry about that…maybe it does just mean thing… someone rang the doorbell when I was going over and just posted it anyway…

they are talking about the sweet that Rina is eating…

Yeah, with the information I have I’d go with “thing” for やつ and no dialect or weirdness going on.

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