興ざめ : NA or NO?

Japanese Language
1

Hi there,

While learning the kanji 興 I came across this form “興ざめ” :

It is listed in Jisho as “Noun, Na-adjective, Suru verb”.
Yet the 2 sentences from Tatoeba show rather a “-No” usage :

  • 興ざめの者
  • 興ざめの人

Obviously it is quite a stretch to draw conclusions from just 2 sentences. So I’m curious if someone would have an example of “興ざめ” used with his -NA adjective form or explain why it is indeed considered by Jisho as a -NA rather than -NO ?

Reading this Tofugu article The Guide to Na-Adjectives and "So-Called" No-Adjectives I kind of feel like this “興ざめ” adjective would fall in what they call " な OR の: THE MIDDLE OF THE SPECTRUM"

PS : it seems Jisho makes the difference between NO and NA adjectives, as I found some other nouns marked as “-No” adjective rather than “-Na”. Example : 遮音 marked as : Noun, No-adjective, Suru verb

Tx for any thoughts !
Yannick

2

I would not bother using Tatoeba for this kind of thing, because there’s no reason to trust it. Anyone can write whatever they want.

The dictionary I looked at had な, but I’ve never seen the word before so I don’t have anything beyond that to go on.

If you want I can look in the BCCWJ later like I recommended last time.

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3

Tx Leebo,

Jisho / Tatoeba remain my entry points as they are in English so easier for me.

Indeed I thought about your previous note on using BCCWJ but in my current learning process, I fear it 's still too difficult for me - kind of “out of my comfort zone” for sure. So it’s a step I know I have to do at some point, but I’m probably not yet there. Or still lacking confidence to do so :grimacing:

Anyway this word is not even labelled as “common” in Jisho so I will probably never see or use it !

4

When I google the word, all I get on the first page is dictionary entries, so not very common, yes.

5

You might want to try https://ejje.weblio.jp instead. I can’t guarantee that all the example sentences there are good (some are from the Tanaka Corpus, for example, which isn’t perfectly accurate), but at least some of them come from major Japanese-English dictionaries, and they’re all coupled with English translations. It’s meant to be used as a dictionary, but you can usually scroll down to the 例文 section for a list of usage examples. (The interface is in Japanese, but the search bar is pretty prominent and the definitions are full of English, so I really think there’s nothing to worry about.)

I took a quick look at the BCCWJ and it seems な brings up 4-5 results (there was one for which I wasn’t sure if な was a tone particle or adjectival ending) whereas の only brings up two. In Goo辞書, the example given in the definition uses な, but all the example sentences that use 興ざめ as an adjective use の instead. There are only five example sentences in total though… Like you said, it’s not a common word.

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6

A native I asked said that the first thing that comes to mind for them is 興ざめする, not using it with な or の.

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It seems most of the examples in organised corpora (like the BCCWJ and the examples on ejje.weblio.jp) involve the する verb form as well.

1 Like
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Thanks both of you :pray: appreciate your time investigating !!
I just tried Weblio, a bit intimidating at first but finally nothing I can’t overcome - so thanks for somehow pushing me !

9

The phrase on TWC brings up some more results: 興ざめ | NINJAL-LWP for TWC. Looks like the NINJAL-LWP for Tsukuba Web Corpus was translated into English recently too :eyes: So that may be easier for you to use than the BCCWJ version, @YannickFrance. Potentially they might translate the BCCWJ in the future, too.

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