涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱: Week 1 Discussion

A pea pod isn’t ovoid, though? It’s more… tubular?

I’m inclined to believe @Belthazar’s take on it, though I still find it pretty strange.

I was trying to explain the trope. Somehow I had the image that in SF people are usually stuffed in egg-shaped things, but, as @QuackingShoe mentioned, the trope is actually called “people jar” apparently and their example list has very few eggs :thinking:

Ah, also, the description gave me the impression the container was flexible and skintight(?), if that makes sense.

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Interesting… !!

Hmm… I hadn’t heard that before. Thanks!

@QuackingShoe - not at all how I read that! I mean, aside from the aliens and the girl. XD

WaniKani just taught me 後悔 this morning and then it showed up in Chapter 1!
Thanks, WaniKani.

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I’m honestly thinking we basically need to sit down and work through it together, sentence by sentence, Beginner Book Club style. It’s hard, yeah, but if we pool our collective grammar know-how, I reckon we can all learn something. As it is, the book clubs here sometimes feel a little to me like everyone reading it on their own, commening “it was good/not good” and moving on - like, why even have a book club? We’re not even having an actual characters/plots/themes style book club discussion.

It was never ever going to be easy anyway - Kyon is an abolute snarker, and Koizumi prevaricates more than Pinocchio in Shrek trying to obfuscate the truth.

I started reading, but several times I’ve caught myself just sounding out the sentences and switching to the English version to work out what it means, but not actually making sense of the grammar.

For example, sentence one:

サンタクロースをいつまで信じていたなんてことはたわもない世間話にもならないくらいのどうでもいいような話だが、それでも俺がいつまでサンタなどとういう想像上の赤服じーさんを信じていたかと言うとこれは確信を持って言えるが最初から信じてなどいなかった。

Probably easier to leave the copying-to-the-forums for someone who has the e-book version…

In my head, I kinda read this as

The question of “when did you stop believing in Santa Claus” is mumble mumble, but for me … uh… something believing in an imaginary red-clothed old guy named “Santa” something, and then with increased confidence I can honestly say I never believed it from the beginning.

I don’t get all the grammar. And even where I’m pretty sure I know what’s going on, there’s still weird stuff happening with particles and conjugations that I don’t even know where to begin breaking down. Like 信じてなどいなかった. What’s など doing in there?

But my point is, maybe some of you do. And maybe working together we can actually work it out. Or maybe, collectively, we just happen to own every single grammar textbook known to man. I’ve got the Dictionaries. And Tobira. :slightly_smiling_face:

I mean, that’s gonna throw the schedule completely out the window, even if we only do it for the first couple of readings, but maybe if it’s a choice between keeping to the schedule, or edifying the group as a whole, the latter one is the better option.

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So, サンタクロースをいつまで信じていた isn pretty straightforward. Then,
なんてことは = “a thing like that”
たわもない is technically separate parts, but as an expression it means “petty” or “frivolous”
世間話にもならない
Together with たわいもない, this is “petty stuff that couldn’t even be small talk”
Because it’s Kyon, he further emphasises this, going on to say くらいのどうでもいいような話
That it’s “a nobody-cares sort of talk to the extent that it couldn’t even be petty stuff unfit for small talk”
だが、”but”
それでも “even so”
俺が いつまで [(サンタなどとういう)想像上の赤服じーさん]を信じていたかと言うと
“If I were to say how long I believed in an imaginary old man named Santa in a red suite,”
これは確信を持って言えるが最初から信じてなどいなかった
“That, I could say with confidence, I didn’t believe or anything from the beginning.”

The question of how long someone believes in Santas Claus is such pointless topic that it couldn’t even approximate smalltalk, but, if I were to say for how long I believes in an imaginary old man in a red suit named Santa or whatever, I could confidently say that I never believed in him from the beginning.

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@Belthazar to the rescue!

That sounds exactly like what we should be doing, indeed!

For your example:
The main point is, as usual, at the end:
最初から信じてなどいなかった I didn’t believe it from the beginning.

Now, there are a few subordinate clauses:
サンタクロースをいつまで信じていたなんてことは About the question “until when did you believe in Santa Claus?”
たわもない世間話にもならないくらいのどうでもいいような話だが、-> 世間話 is small talks, タワもない話 is a story no one cares about (combine both: small talks no one cares about). にもならない doesn’t even become. → “this is a topic so boring that it can’t even reach the status of small talk no one cares about, BUT”

それでも even like that
俺がいつまで until when did I
サンタなどとういう想像上の赤服じーさんを in Santa Claus or whatever, the way we imagine him, that is, an old guy clad in red cloths
信じていたか believed?
というと if we talk about

→ if we still want to ask until when I believed in Santa Claus as an old guy clad in red cloths,

これは確信を持って言えるが最初から信じてなどいなかった。I can say with confidence I haven’t believed in him since the very start.

My break down is probably messy as I was distracted by real life while trying to race @QuackingShoe. I guess I lost on all fronts. Well, I tried.

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:high_touch:

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Oh hey, @Carvs and I were just discussing the other day whether you can split て and いる with particles other than ばかり. I guess you can.

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Yep! I saw the conversation but didn’t feel like I could give an exhaustive list so I stayed out of it.

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Aye, I remember that conversation too.

Thanks for the breakdown, @QuackingShoe and @Naphthalene. This is prose, and prose is a whole different cookie to reading newspapers or Wikipedia or manga dialogue…

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This definitely makes sense to do at least for some of the longer, more confusing sentences, or parts of them. That would cut it down to the point where it’s probably manageable.

I’ve been meaning to ask about a couple of them myself but haven’t gotten around to going back to find them. I’m glad you asked about that first sentence. There were some things in there that confused me and I wasn’t sure if I understood it correctly or not. Thanks @QuackingShoe and @Naphthalene for the explanation.

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Sentence number two, I think I get.

幼稚園のクリスマスイベントに現れたサンタは偽サンタたど理解していたし、記憶をたどると周囲にいた園児たちもあれが本物だとは思っていないような目つきでサンタのコスプレをした園長先生を眺めていたように思う。

(幼稚園のクリスマスイベントに現れた)サンタは偽サンタたど理解していたし = I understood that the Santa (which appeared at my kindergarten Christmas event) was a fake Santa,

記憶をたどると = and consulting my memories (now),

周囲にいた園児たちもあれが本物だとは思っていないような目つきで(サンタのコスプレをした園長先生を眺めていた)ように思う = I’m pretty sure from their expressions that my fellow kindergarten students (watching the principal doing Santa cosplay) didn’t think he was real either.


Third sentence, I’m not too sure where the first half of it is going.

そんなこんなでオフクロがサンタにキスしているちころを目撃したわけでもないのにクリスマスにしか仕事をしないジジイの存在を疑っていた賢しい俺がのだが、宇宙人や未来人や幽霊や妖怪や超能力や悪の組織やそれらと戦うアニメ的特撮的漫画的ヒーローたちがこの世に存在しないのだということに気付いたのは相当後になってからだった。

The English version invokes a reference to the song “I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus”, but while I can see キス in there, I’m not too clear on how it relates.

Something something kiss something clever little me came to doubt that an old man who only worked at Christmas could exist, I also came to realise that aliens, time travellers, ghosts, youkai, ESPers, and the sorts of evil organisations that anime-, tokusatsu or manga-style heroes fight against also did not exist in this world.

Though, what’s 相当後? I don’t think I’m misreading the kanji. *Squint*

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相当後になってからだった

A kinda literal translation would be: “it wouldn’t happen until a suitable time later on”. 相当 = “suitable”, and if you add 後 as a suffix, it becomes “suitable time in the future”

So basically:
…ことに気付いたのは相当後になってからだった
“[it] was a thing that I wouldn’t realize until much later”.

Regarding the 2nd sentence, I don’t know that reference but he’s simply saying exactly that, that he doesn’t need to see his mom kissing Santa to doubt his existence. Actually I have no idea what this means even in English… Unless if it’s a reference to something as you said.

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There is a song about that, so that’s what I assumed it was a reference to (no idea if that’s what it’s intended to reference though)

… which your posts already said, guess I should read more carefully

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I don’t think 後 is a suffix here. I would say 相当 is used as an adverb meaning „considerably, fairly“ here, not suitable.
And then you only have 後になる after that

I do however agree with your interpretation.

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Yeah, both seem possible. But as I couldn’t find any dictionary listing 相当後 as a vocab, you might be right in that it is 相当.後そうとう.あと. Although, I have seen used as a suffix in some words I couldn’t find in dictionaries too, so no idea how to read this one.

And couldn’t find any furigana on the net when it was used. Hope someone could clear this up.

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そんなこんなで is like saying いろいろなことで, like, “with this and that…”
I think maybe you don’t know, オフクロ is a way of referring to your own mother (if you’re a boy).
So yeah, オフクロがサンタにキスしているところを目撃 = witnessing mamma kissing Santa.

And like others have said, the 相当後 means much later, and that’s actually the driving point of the sentence and in fact the last two paragraphs. His point is, that oh-so-clever and pretentious he who knew Santa couldn’t POSSIBLY exist, nevertheless didn’t realize that superheroes and manga heroes didn’t exist until an embarrassingly long time later.

Oh for people who don’t know, the whole mamma kissing santa claus thing comes from the idea that dads would sometimes dress up as santa to give their kids a surprise. But of course after the kids go to bed, “santa” and mom might get a little intimidate, and if you saw that, whoops! That’s not santa! It’s my dad!
But the joke/cuteness of the song is that the singer instead witnesses this and misunderstands further, assuming mom is having an affair with santa.

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This would have made a lot more sense at the time had I remembered this song.

Not going to listen to it though because I think I would rather forget it again.

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