地球星人 🌏 Book Club ・ Week 8

Just in case my comments were misunderstood: I was referring to her reactions to her niece and her friend’s baby specifically. She seemed totally cold toward them, and even her word choices (see 生産 discussion, and reference to the silkworms) made me think that she saw them more like factory products than human beings. Based on this and various other tiny hints, none of which are conclusive evidence, I was speculating that she might have become too cold and unfeeling in order to cope, unable to form emotional connections. This has nothing to do with the value of having children or not, only with Natsuki’s degree of detachment.

6 Likes

It was in fact the longest week in the book page-wise, but I also think there was a stylistic shift that came with the time jump. I think the language became more mature as Natsuki aged. That and the fact that we no longer had the context of continuity for the scene that was being set made this section more difficult than past weeks. I certainly felt like I had to do a lot more lookups.

I actually found the jump a bit jarring and didn’t enjoy this section quite as much as past weeks, but I did like reading about Natsuki’s relationship with her husband. (コンビニ人間 spoilers, minor 乳牛 spoilers) The whole marriage of convenience is a topic that Murata has explored a lot, and honestly this seems like the healthiest version of it that I’ve seen so far in her writing. I like that Natsuki and Tomoya seem to actually like each other. As others have said they seem to get along like good roommates.

There is a detached coldness to Natsuki that’s troubling. When she was a kid, she was certainly a bit of an outcast and had some strange thoughts, but she was able to form interpersonal connections and had her own ambitions, even if they were a bit depressing. I was especially disappointed that she couldn’t think of a good reason that her husband (or herself for that matter) should go on living. It seems that she was broken mentally as well as physically, which makes the events of her childhood even more tragic.

I loved learning this word for the first time because not only was it a cool new word with a cool kanji combo, but it also taught me a bit about Japanese language and culture, as well as a new word in English.

9 Likes

I mean, this is pretty much how I felt after the week one reading. Sounded like an awesome fun time.

Is anyone else worried that 智臣’s reason for surviving is so that he can visit 秋級, and now it sounds like they’re going to visit 秋級?

8 Likes

Ah, sorry for putting words in your mouth. I shouldn’t have done that.

I would be very surprised if it goes in that direction.

I didn’t get the impression that he is tired of life (he was just joking about wanting to die because the whole situation of him getting fired was so embarrassing, I think?). His fascination for nature (and houseplants :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:) is giving him a zest for life, is how it came across to me.

In fact, I have a language question about that:

Her husband says: 「いや、もう死んでしまいたい。死ぬ前に、一度、『工場』から自由になってから死にたい」

I’m having trouble parsing that second sentence. It’s almost as if he’s saying that before he dies, he wants to die once because he wants to get free from the factory. Or is this から as in ‘after a point in time’ so that we get something like ‘Before I die, I want to be free from the factory for once and then (〜てから) I want to die.’? But there is no ‘want to’ in 自由になって…

It’s seems you had pretty much the opposite reaction to mine :smiley:. For me, with this section the book actually became fun again. But I think that’s a sign of a good book: that different people enjoy different parts of it.

I was already expecting the time jump and I was all like: yes, this is the story that needs to be told. There are so many people in the world that have had to cope with abuse in their childhood and that have to deal with it for the rest of their (adult) life.

Regarding emotional coldness

This might be getting a little personal, but I don’t find her coldness that troubling. Maybe it’s because I’m quite a cold and unemotional person myself (I might actually identify with Natsuki quite a bit) (and I might actually be blind to my own personal problems). Why do we all have to love babies, love our family and enjoy sex and intimacy? There can be plenty of reasons (be it personal history or personality traits) why some people do not, and I feel there should be a place in society for those people too.

Natsuki’s family certainly hasn’t earned any rights to Natsuki’s love and when she described how she used that website to find a “husband”, I was all like: “Yes, you go, girl! Stick it to the man!” I really feel that she should find her own purpose in life and her own values. For me, the book is saying: it’s the norm to treat career and family (“the factory”) as one’s purpose in life, but some people want to get free from that norm. And then we get back to the age-old question: what actually is the purpose of life? I feel that Natsuki is struggling with that question.

Yes, I also think it is conscious choice by Murata. I feel that the whole ‘factory’ analogy is not just Natsuki’s cynical world view, it’s also a linguistic observation by Murata as if she’s saying: here we have this language in which there are all kinds of industrial terms in which we use kanji that are normally associated with life and birth. What does this say about us? :smiley:

We’ve often talked about how Murata language is simple and easy, but I get the feeling that that is really just the surface and that there are deeper meanings and little jokes hidden inside the sentence structures, word choice and kanji that she uses. It’s almost like a cryptic crossword where you have to figure out the hidden meaning. I guess that that is why I enjoy reading her work so much: that even with my very limited knowledge of Japanese language and culture I get to pick up on that a little bit. There must be so much more that is flying right by me :sweat_smile:

8 Likes

Yes, it’s ~てから which means exactly what you suspected: てから (JLPT N5) | Bunpro – Japanese Grammar Explained

This is the “intransitive” (for want of a better word) form なる, so it means “to become free”. So altogether it’s something like “Before I die, I want to die after I become free from the factory [at least] once [in my life].

This sounds a bit weird in English, but it also sounds weird in Japanese (as my senpai confirmed).

Hah, funny, I’m also totally with @jhol on this one - I totally lost connection with the plot and almost felt like I wanted to drop the book… :woman_shrugging:

7 Likes

I don’t think he was joking, although I’m not sure he was entirely serious and determined either. He does have his own baggage, that’s for sure. But he seems to not have traveled outside his hometown at all, so his childlike enthusiasm for a different kind of life should be able to sustain him, even after Akishina. Although I’m a little worried about what might unfold there, and how it will affect everyone involved.

On detachment etc

But that was exactly my point. As adults with their own income they don’t depend on their families for survival any more. I don’t see why Natsuki and her husband had to go into this pretend arranged marriage in order to escape their families. I’d imagine they could just choose the life they wanted, and cut ties with whoever took issue with that.

Of course not. Yet she continues to visit them and play the good daughter, even asking for their permission to go to Akishina.

What I described as coldness had nothing to do with desire for intimacy. It goes without saying that everyone should be free to make their own choices on all that.
We’ve seen Natsuki as a child do her “magic” and stop feeling on command, so that she doesn’t feel her mother hitting her, or her teacher molesting her. There’s even a hint that she may still be disconnected from her mouth (the lunch she cooked had no taste). So when I say cold and detached, I meant it in an extreme, possibly pathological way. I worry that Natsuki has shut herself off completely, and might even turn antisocial in a violent way. That’s just wild speculation though. She’s most probably just trying to cope in a world that functions in a way that is foreign to her.

No worries :slight_smile: I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t coming across as if I thought everyone should play happy families.

6 Likes

You’re right, “why do they need this construct?” is indeed a valid question. More social norms that are apparently hard to break free from…

5 Likes

This week’s reading felt like a double portion!

Interesting to see the silkworm room making a comeback. The scene with Shizuka has made its significance a bit clearer. It seems to be a metaphor for human society: everyone crammed together, made to procreate by an invisible hand. No individuality, no personal agency.

[清潔な結婚 spoiler] The way Natsuki’s and her husband’s relationship is described reminds me of the ‘clean marriage’ from 清潔な結婚, in that they seem more like roommates than a traditional married couple. It’s interesting to me that in Murata’s works ‘untraditional’ marriages (no kids; equal distribution of household labour) are only ever marriages of convenience. Can’t help but feel like that is some sort of comment on the current state of ‘normal’ marriages. If equal division of labour is abnormal, I don’t want to be normal! :crazy_face:)

[コンビニ人間 spoiler] Adult Natsuki reminds me of Keiko, mostly her general sense of detachment from society and ‘anthropological’ way of observing it. The way she consciously mimics Shizukachan’s use of emoji as a way of avoiding potential awkwardness. The way she feels meeting up with Shizukachan would be a chore, but also doesn’t want to be left behind completely by society.

[コンビニ人間 spoiler] Someone should’ve told Shiraha that he could’ve just gone to surinuke.com and all his problems would’ve been solved!

Favourite turn of phrase this week: 「女」として優等生.

Omg I totally didn’t register the connection when I saw it! Cool!

Lots of questions left… What the hell happened to make Kise behave somewhat normally toward her sister and for her mother to cease being so openly hostile? Is Teruyoshi’s “weird interest” in Yuu something to be worried about? What happened to ピュート?!?!

10 Likes

I feel you there. I quit facebook years ago because I was tired of pretending my friends’ ugly babies were cute :upside_down_face:. It took nearly a decade of marriage for my wife’s parents to accept that we weren’t having kids, but just last month my Japanese mother sent me a message on LINE to the effect of “If you don’t have babies, you will be lonely when you get old.” The social pressure to conform is quite strong, especially in Japan, and it seems that Murata has a lot to say about that.

I wonder if part of it is Japanese culture. The pressure to stay connected to family and create the illusion of fitting in is just too strong to completely ignore. Another part may be that Natsuki wanted to maintain ties with her sister to get updates on Yuu, and wanted to leave the door open to someday seeing him again… Also, is it a characteristic for victims to want to stay connected to their abusers? I was surprised to find that Natsuki’s family kept her under wraps until she was in her thirties.

7 Likes

I think in the moment, large time jumps are always a bit jarring for me. They’re immersion breaking and it can feel like a bit of a chore to push through when my momentum has been swept away. However, this may be more of a shortcoming of myself as a reader and (usually) the feeling is localized to the part immediately following the jump. I absolutely agree that this is the way the story needs to be told though and advise everyone to stick with it if you’re in my boat.

The coldness I was describing didn’t really have to do with Natsuki’s lack of interest in babies or intimacy (in fact I think Murata really makes some valid criticisms regarding the way people view the traditional family). It was more her way of treating relationships, like how she only seems to hang out with Shizuka as part of an act to put on for society without seeming to have other friends to speak of. In isolation this might not seem so bad, but in contrast with her past self who was a genuinely caring person who was willing to put herself in harm’s way for the sake of her friend, it’s a bit worrying. Perhaps the most worrying was this line (pg. 140):

止めるようとしたが、夫をこの世界に引き止める理由は特に思いつかなかった。夫に好きなものや、やりたいことがあればいいのだが、そういうわけではない。それなのに夫も、そして私も生き延びている。何のために生き延びているのか、と問われれば、私にもよくわからなかった。

(コンビニ人間 Spoilers) At this point I kind of see Natsuki as a Keiko without a コンビニ. In コンビニ Keiko’s reason detached way of thinking was a bit humorous, but knowing Natsuki’s past makes it feel more tragic in this context. I wish Natsuki, like Keiko, had a reason to live and not just survive, like Keiko did.

(コンビニ人間 Spoilers)

:rofl:

This actually made me a bit angry. Kise’s so quick to suspect Teruyoshi of a weirdly familiar relationship with Yuu just because Teruyoshi seems to have been genuinely kind to a boy coming from a difficult family situation, but she was so willing to write off her sister’s very real problems as a kid.

11 Likes

I don’t think there’s necessarily anything untoward going on, but… I have a sense Teruyoshi might be Yuu’s father? Is that crazy?

Wait, didn’t you already read this in English? I guess I’ll see in a few weeks if I just made a fool of myself :grin:

8 Likes

Quick question: How to understand the なあと in クビになたっても仕方がないかもしれないなあと、…?

3 Likes

I think it’s just an elongated sentence ending particle followed by quoting particle と.

Coincidentally, we also had a discussion about な in the Death Note | Week 1 Discussion thread. な can be used to create a negative command and when it’s not, it is often pronounced in an elongated way (probably to make the distinction clearer).

@omk3 shared this link to a maggiesensei article: How to use the suffix 〜な ( = na) / ~ なあ ( = naa)

7 Likes

@wiersm Thank you very much for the info.

2 Likes

Like others, I found this section a bit trickier, with much higher amount of lookups - this is reflected by the 200+ words that I added to the vocab sheet. Eek! Was hoping to continue reading sections per week in my quest to catch up, but the added lookups definitely slowed by. I’m hoping for lots of dialogue next week!

I also found this section much less of a page turner - if I were reading this in English I think I would appreciate the change of pace more considering how intense the last couple sections have been, but I do wish there had been a bit more showing then telling. This was exasperated for me by the slowness of reading in Japanese.

Summary

Re: marriage. I think in general it seems like a fairly good arrangement: they respect each other and have a clear understanding of what they both want from the marriage. Like others, I found his enthusiasm for Akishina a bit uncomfortable - but then again, his perspective is basically of someone whose only read the first chapter. For Natsuki, I wonder if telling these stories is a way for her to cling on to the happy memories of her childhood, rather than having Akishina be forever associated with the trauma of what happened there. But now she is in a somewhat awkward position of not being able to say no to going.

I’ve also been thinking about why she hasn’t just broken off from her family earlier. It struck me that she had actually asked permission earlier to move out - it makes me think that in a lot of ways she hasn’t really changed and was pretty deeply affected by being found with Yuu. Whatever rebelliousness we saw at the end of last chapter, has been subdued. She might be wary of “the factory” but she also is fearful of what might happen if she goes against it.

Compound that with the fact that breaking away from abusive situations is never easy. Her family might be horrendous, but she also doesn’t really know of a life without them. And in real life, people are not usually abusive 100% of the time. We see that somewhat with her conversations with her sister. So it becomes a situation of thinking “this is just about bearable, maybe this is just what families are like.” Even if neither of these things are true.

I wonder as well if her promise to Yuu to survive at all cost is part of it as well. Surviving in this situation might be playing by the rules of The Factory, to play nice with family and not cause too much of a stir. Her main point of resistance is in her marriage: she refused to give over her reproductive system. But she is doing it quietly. It’s clear that most people around her think this is a “normal” marriage. In addition, her family is her one link to Yuu. That I think is important.

I do find the pressure to get pregnant that Natsuki is experiencing is interesting. I know that it’s 100% a real thing, but because my friend circle is largely leftist academics, I don’t really have that. If anything, I’m surrounded by people who really don’t want kids. This despite being only a couple of years years younger than Natsuki. Even my family is fairly relaxed all things considered. But I definitely feel for those that do. Even if I’m somewhat agnostic about having children, pregnancy scares me. The thought of my body changing in all these unexpected ways is filled with lots of unknown. It’s also tied up with lots of feeling about climate change and what kind of world I’d be bringing kids into. So I feel pretty strongly that it should be a personal choice. If I had that kind of pressure, it would be the cause of lots of stress.

In any case, I’m interested to see what happens next!

12 Likes

Finally made it past Week 8. :tired_face: I had to go on a trip, which broke my momentum. Only today did I get back to reading more than one page of the book in a day.

Putting the trip aside, I agree that there was a shift in my reading experience for this portion. I…may have added even more words to the spreadsheet. :sweat_smile: I don’t really think my interest waned, though. The ending certainly makes me curious to see how things will play out.

Natsuki's coldness

The discussion around this was interesting to read. On the one hand, I can understand why it would be troubling to see Natsuki now and compare her to how she was as a child: there is a warmth that she had as a kid that seems to be missing from most of her relationships. On the other hand, it’s kind of understandable: the only person who understands her is her husband (though that isn’t to say he understands everything). It’s hard to develop close relationships to people when you think you need to put on an act around them. Though Natsuki was once willing to protect Shizuka, for example, she’s now grown older and become part of “the factory,” which is something Natsuki has never wanted to be a part of. It doesn’t help that everyone else has a strong opinion/interest when it comes to how Natsuki and her husband should be conducting themselves. This brings me to the next topic under a drop-down menu.

Natsuki's Proximity to Her Family

One of the big questions this week was: why didn’t Natsuki move far away from her family? This is a complicated one. Obviously, I don’t know for sure, but I can imagine why she didn’t. It’s not always easy breaking ties with family and friends. I come from a family known for holding strong opinions about most things in life, and I’ve had to deal with being on the receiving end when something I did wasn’t to their favor. You get tired of hearing complaints/disappointment thrown your way, something that Natsuki had to deal with her entire life. We saw that she was a people-pleaser as a child, and I doubt that completely went away as she got older (why else work so hard to be seen as “normal”?). There’s also her husband’s family to contend with: though we don’t know a ton about them, he seems to have grown up in a similar enough environment where they were critical of him. All of this is also not even engaging with the aspects of abuse that more than likely color the way Natsuki continues to feel and think. Basically, I think it’s one of those “easier said than done” scenarios.

I wanted to catch up by the end of Week 12, but it’s not looking good… :face_exhaling: I’ll keep doing my best.

10 Likes

We can do it! Good news is that next week is not as difficult reading :slight_smile: Shouldn’t have to add quite as many words to the vocab sheet, ha. And if not - we’ll have our own celebration when we get to the end. Slow and steady wins the race!

7 Likes

In this week’s reading I could sympathize a lot with Natsuki’s “factory” idea that when you’re married there is a lot of pressure in Japan to have kids not too long after.

This feels like a lot of set up for a terrible time but she’s not a kid anymore so whatever has happened in the 20+ years since the nightmare full Natsuki called a childhood, I can possibly (and I know I will eat these words) not want to bleach my eyes after reading…

some **** is going down soon isn’t it…

5 Likes

I am reading along with you. It’s great to see someone posting in these old threads!

I think we are in for some shock soon. I keep saying to myself “Why are you reading this!?!” but the writing is really great and I love the feeling of finishing a book so I will stick it out.

I agree a lot with what was posted above. I wonder why Natsuki didn’t just ditch her family. It seemed like that was her plan as a child; to become independent. I wonder if she kept in contact with her family because it is her only hope to reconnect with Yuu.

5 Likes

That’s awesome. I like how WK book clubs divide the books so I don’t feel like I need to rush to finish. And each week can just be one or two days. So I roughly finish the number of weeks there are in days.

3 Likes