Thanks for all your help, guys, especially ChristopherFritz with the Kansai-ben listings in the vocab sheet. I do have one question:
Page 89:
自分かあ! What does this mean? If 自分 is ‘self’ then my best guess is “It’s me!” But that doesn’t really seem right. かあ doesn’t mean anything to me…
I´m so glad you asked this, because I didn´t fire that question and I may have overestimated my interpretation! Now we can check with the experts. However, let me tell you what I made of it:
That 自分 is one of the pronouns to reinforce the concept of grammar reflexiveness and I think sometimes it acts as a substitute for certain personal pronouns one normally wouldn´t encounter in Japanese, such as “He/She, They, etc”. Having said that, the classic translation would be “myself, herself, themselves, etc.” depending on the context.
The か particle, amongst its classic functions of expressing questions, is, from what I have experienced, also used to express a certain degree of doubt or uncertainty (and that´s what its 4th entry in Jisho says). I think this nuance could apply here. (By the way, that あ for sure is just there to express the “rough” nature of the Kansai dialect)
Following this (and taking the context aside for a moment) we could have the following translation:
Is it myself-herself? / Could it be myself/herself? (I only took into account “myself” and “herself” because 自分 can only refer to Daigo or to Kanami.
With all of this in mind, this is what I thought:
Since it´s Daigo speaking and he´s addressing Kanami (The かなみちゃん that comes afterwards for me is a hint), I think it´s legitimate to think that that 自分 refers to Kanami, especially if we take into account that following か, which I think on the whole (context included) doesn´t fit in a question-doubt statement about himself. Thanks to the help of @BarelyFragile and @ChristopherFritz we now know with a high degree of certainty that that アイツから聞いてんで refers to Daigo saying to Kanami something along the lines of “I´m the one you heard about from that guy (Makoto)”, so that implies (which would also be natural with no textual reference whatsoever) that Makoto has talked at length to Daigo about Kanami, considering how fond he is of her. His reaction towards finally meeting Kanami is what could account for that か nuance of “doubt-uncertainty plus emotion”.
My final translation: “Could it [possibly] be Kanami-chan herself?!”
I may have just said a big chunk of nonsense, so I apologize in advance just in case However, I hope it helps you in some way!! And, right or wrong, I had fun with my theory
I agree with @kousei22 on か. I imagine the かあ is drawn out to reflect Daigo’s speech, alongside the use of exclamation points, as loud. It’s like the difference between someone saying “Hey, you!” and someone saying “Heeey, yoooou!”
I wanted to agree on 自分 as well, but something was bugging me about this usage. I mean, I knew it refers to Kanami, but reading kousei22’s bit on 自分 (which sounds about right to me) made to realize something was off about this usage.
That’s what didn’t feel right to me. This kind of second-person usage.
Kansai dialect is a formidable opponent.
Nothing notable came up, so perhaps it’s just as I would expect if I weren’t second-guessing myself: the て form of だ.
It’s a useful way to look up words that you don’t know while reading along.
If the word you’re looking for isn’t on the spreadsheet, then that means it appeared earlier in the book. (When I put the spreadsheet together, I removed duplicates up front to cut down on the time it’d take to populate it.)
An advantage to the vocabulary sheet versus looking up the words on your own is that if the word has multiple meanings, the correct one in context is listed.
Chapter 8 is the first chapter in volume 2 to be based on the original Pixiv release of the manga. Prior chapters in this volume had been created specifically for the commercial release. Originally, this was chapter 4, taking place after the first three chapters seen in volume 1 (intro chapter, school/theft chapter, backstory chapter).
Aside from the usual changes (叶実’s height change, ロン shrinking out of view), we also see 大吾’s Kansai dialect has leveled up between the Pixiv release and the commercial release.
Pixv:「おー そうしょうか」
Comm:「せやな!」
Page 95 Changes
After みずす accuses 大吾 of skipping class (サボる), his response has been updated, including another sign that his Kansai dialect leveled up:
Pixv:「と… とれてるで…」
Comm:「サ…サボってへんで…」
Seeing as とる is one of those homonyms that gets used in many different situations, I appreciate this change. (I suppose when written in kanji, they would become homophones.)
Merry Christmas everyone!! I hope you are having a great time these days! I have one last question for Week 5. In this two sentences:
おにいちゃんが名前で呼ばれてるの不思議な感じ (Page 91)
大学終わってからの夜間のバイトにももう慣れたし (Page 94)
After the highlighted の´s there should be a は marking the end of each clause which has been omitted, am I right? If that´s the case, is this kind of omission typical in casual speech?
I don’t have a answer for this, but I will say that web searches seem to agree with including は for the first one:
“の不思議な感じ” = 645,000 results
“のは不思議な感じ” = 3,600,000 results
“るの不思議な感じ” = 5 results
“るのは不思議な感じ” = 259,000 results
I read the words before 夜間 as modifying it. Makoto’s not talking about any night. To limit which nights he’s referring to, it’s modified by 「大学終わってから」. (For those who haven’t learned it yet, 「verbて+から」 means “after doing (verb)”.) He’s limiting which nights he’s talking about to just the nights after he’s finished classes.
There’s something specific in this sentence that I think is a vital clue on the は question. I’ve never paid attention for this to know whether I’ve seen it before or not, but can the topic markers は and も both be in the same sentence? This sentence has a も topic particle in it, which splits it into the topic/comment as:
Not very confident about this, but I agree with @ChristopherFritz and that these seem two very similar uses of the の particle but slightly differentiated.
おにいちゃんが名前で呼ばれてる の 不思議な感じ
Here の is working as a verb nominalizer; it’s turning the phrase おにいちゃんが名前で呼ばれてる into a noun, and then giving a statement or remark about that fact.
おにいちゃんが名前で呼ばれてる => Oniichan is being called by his name.
不思議な感じ => (is) a mysterious feeling.
The fact that Oniichan is being called by his name, is a mysterious feeling.
Here, の is being roughly translated to “the fact that” .
I feel that adding a は here would be fine, and it might have been omitted due to casual speech. Keep in mind that の is turning the preceding phrase into a noun. Any particle that applies to a noun can be used after の, depending on the verb and what function this phrase-turned-into-a-noun is playing.
For example:
彼女がビールを飲むのを見た。
I saw her drink beer.
So in this example 見る is a transitive verb that can take a direct object. This direct object is the fact that she was drinking beer, so it takes the を particle.
大学終わってから の 夜間のバイトにももう慣れたし
Here の is being used to properly make 大学終わってから a modifier for 夜間. The DoBJG gives this example:
これ は 友達からの手紙です。
This is a letter from a friend.
友達から is modifying 手紙. 大学終わってから is modifying 夜間 (and in turn 大学終わってからの夜間 is modifying バイト).
I believe that here we cannot add は after の because that would break this nouns-modifying-nouns chain. It would make 大学終わってから the topic of the sentence which wouldn’t make much sense (since the topic is バイト).
Many thanks @ChristopherFritz and @2OC3aOdKgwSGlxfz for your breakdowns!! Such a lot of gold grammar info there. Now I perfectly understand what´s going on.
Hi! It’s a little late but, just a lurker wanting to share a bit of what I learned from a Jap native teacher when studying this chapter (who also happened to be from Osaka!) It’s another way you could look at these grammar structures:
てん→たんだ
Examples include:
安かってん→安かったんだ
持ってん →持ったんだ
And with ねん→んだ
Examples:
おなかがいたいねん → おなかがいたいんだ
はんがくやったんだ → はんがくだったんだ (useful common phrase)
And I can also confirm that あいつから聞いてんで is definitely あいつから聞いたんだよ
Page 99
せっかくだし遊んでみたら
My guess is that the し is there as part of the “listing reasons” construction, although it seems like a list of one. What do you guys think?
Page 105
いくよ せーのつ or いくよ せーのっ?
This is one where the general meaning is obvious from the context, but I can’t find translations for the words specifically. (I tried searching with both the big つ and the small っ.) I wonder if the いくよ is something like “let’s go,” and is completely separate from the second part? But without any more clues I can’t really decide.
This is what I´ve reached myself, I hope it helps you!
I´ll start with the most “straightforward” question, the one regarding p. 105.
That いくよ is, in my opinion, as you´ve said, something that could translate as “Let´s go”! The following is just せえの, which is the Japanese version of: “Ready, steady, go!” There is a direct entry in Jisho:
all together now!; one, two, go!; ready, set, go!; heave, ho!; oops-a-daisy
Other forms
せいの、せーの、いっせいの、いっせーの、セイノー
Notes
せいの: Irregular kana usage. いっせいの: Irregular kana usage.
No pitch accent information
I completely agree that the し is the famous reason particle. What I inferred was that the other potential reasons were omitted, mainly because of that せっかく, which, amongst its various meanings, I think in this context it is using what JLPT Sensei (N2 level) refers to as the nuance of “capitalizing on an opportunity”. So, it could translate as “Now that we are here, why don´t you try playing?” or “Now that we have the opportunity, why don´t you try playing”? Because “being there” is the main reason (reinforced by that せっかく) for “trying to play”, the other potential reasons are simply omitted or implied (the same nuance that, in other contexts, a など could convey)
Is that から relating to the preceding sentence (as we´ve seen in other places during the reading) or is it joined with いい? Because in Jisho there is an いいから fixed expression which means “never mind, don´t worry about that, listen…”. However, I had interpreted it as the former. Also, I´m unsure about that ように.
My translation was: “Let´s start slowly and steadily getting used [to Makoto´s friends?] so that you can talk to other adults rather than me”
Page 98
声でかいってよう言われんねん
I read there was a specific Kansai grammar which consisted of よう plus negative potential form, which meant something like “not being able to”, but even if this were correct, I don´t really know how to link it to that って particle. I had translated:
I´m not able to speak but with a huge voice
But, once again, it´s a guess up to some point.
Page 112
話をするのも大変だった時期あったんだ
How does that 話をするのも connect with the rest of the sentence? I can´t figure out a proper translation here.
Many thanks in advance for your help and Happy new Year everyone!!
I agree with @kousei22’s explanation above. I just wanted to make a note that using し as a list of one is a common usage and carries a specific implication that there may be other reasons (according to Tae Kim and Genki II, chapter 13).
I’d say it’s the former. He’s basically saying “because it’s fine if you take your time…” No sources for this, but in my experience, the いいから usage that you mentioned tends to be used at the beginning of a sentence. For example,「いいから気にしないで」, which would be something like “it’s fine, so don’t pay it any mind.” That being said, I don’t think the two usages are significantly different (in that いいから as an expression is basically saying some variation of “it’s fine so…”).
Ah, yes, my arch-nemesis.
One of the uses of ように is, as you noted in your translation, “so that”. Let’s get used to ø so that you can talk to adults other than me. I do think this is a translation that makes the most sense here. However, ように can also be used in a AようにB format to express B’s similarity to A. I think in this situation this would translate to something like "Just like being able to speak to adults other than me, let’s get used to ø. Contextually, I think this makes less sense, but if someone has a better translation of this usage of ように with this sentence, please chime in.
(I do think that the ø I used above refers to Makoto’s friends. He saw that Kanami was feeling scared (because Daigo is loud) and is telling her it’s fine it takes her some time but she should try to get used to them.)
First a small note - 言われん comes from the negative “passive” form, not the negative potential form (which would be 言えん).
Based on what I’ve found online, よう in 関西弁 is よく in standard Japanese. I think the って is the (casual) quotation usage here, so he’s saying something like “I haven’t frequently/clearly* been told that my voice is loud,” (potentially with the implication that if he had, he would have been able to control his voice better, but this is more of a contextual guess than a speech based one).
*The clearly here comes from this where it talks about a couple of uses of よう+negative form.
I think the base form of this sentence is 時期があったんだ, or period/season was there/existed, and everything before 時期 is describing what kind of season it was. In this case, the descriptive clause is 話をするのも大変だった. 「大変だった」is saying that it was difficult/hard and the 話をするのも tells us what “it” refers to. The の here is the makes the 話をする into a noun, and the も is the inclusive topic particle, and references Diago calling him 暗い. I think this sentence is basically saying that there was a time when even speaking (to Makoto) was difficult.
I believe this is a small っ. This is often used to indicate that a sound ends abruptly. Since せーの is a signal to start an action, the の sound ending abruptly strengthens the feeling that after の has been pronounced, an action should be starting.
You can think of it as the opposite of ー, which is used to make sounds longer.
っ is just indicating how the word is being pronounced in this particular case, that’s why it isn’t part of the dictionary entry.
I agree with @BarelyFragile that this よう comes from よく, and that って is the casual quotation particle. Also, the ねん at the end seems to come from のだ, the explication-tone の。
However, I can’t quite get my head around 言われん. This seems to be in passive (言われる), and the sentence seems to mean “I’m often told that I’m loud”. However, this being in negative doesn’t seem make a lot of sense. If anything, everything that happens in this chapter seems to point to the fact that he’s naturally loud, and thus that he’s often told so. Also, the next sentence he says feels like it makes more sense if this 言われん isn’t in negative:
叶実ちゃんビビらせんように気ぃつけるわ
I’ll be careful as to not startle/frighten Kanami-chan.
So… I’m not sure. Can’t seem to find what else that ending ん could be in 言われん.
I read the negative, that he doesn’t get told he’s loud, as meaning he’s fairly unaware of how others perceive his volume. Most people don’t have a problem with how loud he is, so he doesn’t get told he’s loud. Not realizing it, he’s taken aback to learn he’s being too loud for Kanami. Once he’s thoroughly aware of it, he makes the effort to speak more softly.