コンピュータの秘密 (Math and CS book club)

You were missing a が (see above). That probably changes a lot in terms of ease of comprehension. As for your translation… you almost got it, but I don’t think that’s exactly what the sentence meant. This is how I understand it:

That aside, there are also functions (働き=はたらき) like ‘compression’ that shrinks data and ‘parity’ for checking whether there are mistakes in the computer’s operation, you know?

OK, so, I needed to dig through the book for a bit because I (very obviously) haven’t been reading along, but I found it. It’s actually「装置がおさめられている」. If you’ve watched The Rising of the Shield Hero, you’ll know that there’s an episode (Episode 9 – I had to check because I had forgotten the order of events) where a character shouts,「剣をおさめなさい!」(the transcription I saw uses 納める, but apparently the form using a different kanji, 収める, is fine as well). It means ‘to keep away’. Therefore, in this context, it’s something like ‘[various types of] equipment are stowed away [inside the computer’s body]’.

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You’re absolutely right, it makes a lot more sense now!

After googling parity I came to the same conclusion about the meaning, since that term only seems to apply to the mistake checking part of the sentence. I was a bit confused before about how to tell that パリティ is only referring to the second part of the list. But when looking at 圧縮 as another newly introduced technical term like in your translation it makes sense. Thank you!

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It’s probably a better idea to do a bit more searching than to trust me on this, but the impression I have is that it’s メモリ for RAM and (ハードディスク)容量 for hard disk storage space. That’s what seemed to come up on Google when I searched for ラム足りない and ハードディスク足りない.

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Exactly. So far they were emphasizing the part about processing data and doing calculations (処理する / 計算する). In the mentioned panel on p.46 they are introducing two more concepts as both of you addressed:

The 「データを小さくする」briefly explains what 圧縮 is and the 「動きにまちがいがないかを調べる」what パリティ is.

As for the discussion on memory: I’m not super up to date with all the fancy new hardware stuff but in general we have a trade-off between speed and size. In the following I’ll cluster it into three groups but you can always differentiate it into more clusters, I guess.

  • Cache memory - date that is hold in cache memory can be accessed very fast. The amount of data that can be hold in cache is very limited though. It usually holds data that is needed by the CPU for immediate calculations. Nowadays graphic cards probably have their own caches for GPUs as well… Feel free to dive into it if you like :slight_smile:

  • Main memory - this is where most of the action happens. You have the operating system in here and the different apps you are running and relevant data. Reading data from here is a way slower than reading from cache but it can hold multiple gigabytes already.

  • Storage - this is where the data is stored. Data in here is persistent even without a connection to electricity. Hard disk drives (HDD) is what often comes in mind first. But other media can be used as well. In the manga they introduced DVD or CD-ROM. Modern storage also includes USB drive or Solid-state drives (SSD), for example. Reading from storage is very slow but the amount of data that can be stored is very big.

The term RAM refers to a type of memory with certain technical attributes. It is called ‘random-access memory’ and as the term implies, data hold in RAM can be randomly read from or written into the memory. A different type of memory would be ROM which is a ‘read-only memory’.

RAM technology is what is used to realize main memory and if I interpreted the linked Wikipedia article correctly DDR4 is still a modern player here. But again, I’m not a hardware person :sweat_smile:

Maybe it depends on the perspective you’d like to highlight :slight_smile: For example I’d use the term main memory when talking about something from a function oriented perspective. Example “Apps are run in main memory and data is then stored on disk.” I’d use the term RAM if I want to highlight the technical aspects. I wouldn’t call it a RAM disk as technically it is not a disk…

Very valid point :smiley: I’d sometimes only say " I need more memory." or “Not enough memory” as this would be my default assumption for memory in a colloquial discussion.

I’m not sure about all the different possible terms but to be on the safe side you can simply go with storage, I guess. HDD is very common and it can be internal or external. But other types of storage exist, as mentioned above.

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Hello everyone. Short check-in on chapter 3 as another week is already over. After really going into the internals of a computer in the last chapter, this time we zoomed out quite a lot.

In relation to the last chapter when we talked about a computer’s internals here is two more cs terms:

A device usually has the one or the other (or both) to actually connect with other devices. If I remember correctly the manga has covered routers. In the WiFi context the following term might be helpful to know as well:

I’m not completely finished with chapter 3 (still have to go through all the dangers laying ahead :smile: ) But feel free to discuss or share your takeaways.

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Hello,
i am still one page behind and have couple of questions from the 3rd chapter.

Page 76:

…ホームペギかいてあることに、うそう…
not familiar with grammar and not sure how to find it, when i search for it kotoni comes up which says to how emotion, but doesn’t seem to fit here.

Page 78:

時間以内に
jikan inai ni? there is no time? Jisho translates inai as “within; inside of; less than” so not sure, and the ni particle at the end doesn’t help…

Page 78:
相談してからにしよう,
so the first word is ‘consultation/advice’ but don’t know what last part means. My guess is that it should be split up into 相談して–から–に–しよう.しよう would be volitional of suru, right? Maybe に is not a particle but part of last word?

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Well, I literally just finished to go through the last part of the chapter :smiley:

It is the following, I think:

  • ホームペギ+に
  • 書く+てある+こと+に
  • うそ+や

So I’d say something like: Among the things written on homepages, (there also are lies and mistakes). So basically it is a warning not to trust stuff blindly just because it is written in the internet.

It is referring to malicious mails that urge the reader to do something within a certain (usually very short) time-limit. You can imagine it in a sentence saying something like: “Do the following within the given time or else… / if you wish to avoid [something bad here]…”

About the last one I’m not 100% sure myself. I’d break it down like the following:

  • 相談
  • ~してから → after doing ~
  • にする+Volitional → にする is a grammar point for “to decide on something” (DBJG)

I think, they are kind of contrasting the case about not family friendly content on homepages and the case about game websites. Whereas in the first case their suggestion is to make sure those websites cannot be visited, in the second case they suggest something like: In the case of games and other things, make the decision after a good [ / extensive / well argued…] discussion in your family.
At least that’s what I settled with :sweat_smile:

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Yup. That’s it. The way to figure this one out is to look for the overarching structure of the sentence: there was「(も)ある」at the end. Particles like を, が and に are often paired with verbs, so it pays to look out for them. Here, we had [noun]+に+ある. That’s often a good indicator that we’re looking at the structure that literally means ‘in the context of [noun], there exists…’ that conveys ideas like existence in a particular location or belonging to someone or something.

By the way, @kodvin, it’s ホーム ページ. The thing retained from English is the pronunciation, not the spelling in rōmaji.

Yup. This is the one. I think you might not have noticed something that would have helped you understand: it was written as 〇時間以内に. In Japanese, 〇 is often used as a placeholder. Also, it happens that in Japanese, 時間 also means ‘hour’. (Yes, I forgot that too for a second there, particularly since in Chinese, which I also speak, 時間 means ‘time’ and nothing else.) Therefore, 〇時間, with 〇 most likely representing a number, is a reference to a time limit of ‘X hours’, essentially. 〇 can also be a placeholder for other things in other contexts, like someone’s name. It basically stands in for whatever’s appropriate in a particular context.

I think this breakdown and the idea of ‘contrast’ are accurate. However, I think that the the translation is closer to something like ‘let’s be sure to/let’s settle on [doing so] after consulting family members’. The thing marked by に in the にする structure is the thing that is chosen or that one decides to do. Here, I believe that thing is the entire phrase up to してから. The sentence is therefore suggesting that readers ‘choose’ to act ‘after consulting the people at home’.

At the very least, that’s my interpretation. From what I can find online, my translation is definitely accurate. I’m not 100% sure that my parsing is correct though, because I’m concerned about the fact that てからに apparently has a meaning of its own. The problem is that I don’t think that meaning fits here (and I honestly don’t understand it very well), and that at the same time, I’m not completely certain that してから can have にする attached to it because it’s not a noun. I mean, it’s quite normal for particle chains to form in Japanese, and からに certainly isn’t strange in and of itself, but I don’t know whether or not してから can take the place of something like こと in the にする structure. I decided to ask Maggie Sensei my question, and I’ll update this thread when she replies.

UPDATE: Yes, my interpretation is correct. Her explanation is that we can see it like this:

家の人と相談してから(ゲームをすること)にしよう

The bit in brackets has been omitted. That’s all. It’s implied by context, I guess.

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Wow, thanks for explaining in such detail. I feel i had some of the ‘puzzle’ pieces right, but what i was missing was so important that it didn’t click.
I totally missed the bubble(and of course misspelled ペッジ). I remember thinking that if it had a number then ‘less than’ would makes sense but then i thought maybe it is ‘time’.

With all this help I am able to achieve close to 100 percent comprehension level even at a fast pace (for me) shame i can’t add multiple :heart: on the same post :smiley: .

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Almost there. ページ :stuck_out_tongue: Long え sound.

Glad to hear it! :grin:

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ページ there, finally :smiley:

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Thanks for adding some more in-depth explanations on the grammar points.

Especially on this last one :slight_smile:

Also, thanks for looking into the following one:

I was curious if someone else would come across: おさめる (理める) → to be arranged well; to be organized cleverly / in a logical way…

I found it within one of the resources I use for cross-checking regularly. The English online dictionary “jisho” does not support it. The Japanese online dictionary “goo” has the following remarks on 理 though:

理 @ Goo lists (among others):
意味: ③おさめる。ととのえる
解説:
きちんと筋道を立てる。
きちんと整える。おさめる。

I have no further support, if the given context about the internals of a computer are a scenario when Japanese people would use 理める. So maybe I’m misconceiving something here…

Using 収める instead makes totally sense to me. But, if 理める would be a valid option as well, I think it fits even better, since the space on the main board or within a device in general (especially laptops / raspberry pi / smartphones etc…) is very limited.

… seems I’m not only making confusing typos in English but in Japanese as well :see_no_evil:

… and I’m wondering where I copy and pasted this one from :thinking: :upside_down_face:

Already a new week. Only two more sessions to go :muscle:

… and it looks like the Big numbers thread came in handy when learning about “K” and other super computers :slight_smile:

p.86:
2012年に、約6年の年月をかけて完成した「京」は、…

What does「約6年の年月をかける」mean? It is in the 「京」のしくみ section.

My break down would be:

  • 約 → after
  • 6年 (+ の) → 6 years
  • 年月 (+ を) → years and months ?? ( → but I can’t fit it in into the clause…)
  • かける → spend, use (in this case: take a certain amount of time, I’d say)

So, from the overall context I understand it is saying something like:

In 2012, the completed “K”, which took [a total time of (??)] 6 years, …

Update: okay, also looked it up on goo and it seems it can be used in the following sense as well…

  • 長い年月がたつ

→ So my guess is, they are using it to emphasize that it took quite a long time before “K” was finished, no?

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Glad to be of service :wink:

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Almost the right interpretation, but not quite. In order to interpret this correctly, you need to remember that relative clauses are a single block, generally. That is, the て-form (かけて) combining into a single phrase with 完成した takes priority over the fact that 完成した modifies「京」(which is 1万 to the power of four, by the way – that might have been why that name was chosen). It’s as though you’re forming an entire sentence, then attaching it to「京」.

It’s actually

  • 約 → about (=roughly)
  • 6年 (+ の) → 6 years :white_check_mark:
  • 年月 (+ を) → years and months = time (this expression uses the longer units of time in order to refer to time as it passes, usually with reference to a fairly long period of time)
  • かける → spend, use (in this case: take a certain amount of time, I’d say) :white_check_mark:

Therefore,

overall, this means in 2012, Kei, which took about six years’ worth of time to complete,….

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Thanks for stepping in again :slight_smile: This makes more sense to me now.

Correct. …and the English term seems to be K.

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First of all, about chapter 3 - I really enjoyed the fact that they used a supermarket as an example of how the internet is used, since my local supermarket got hacked that week and a bunch of items were out of stock for a while :upside_down_face:

I’ve been reading less closely so I could catch up, so no grammar questions from me - I just wanted to mention how adorable p93 was :grinning:

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Thanks for sharing to both of you.

As I’m not finished yet I’ll leave the spoiler parts for a couple of more days though :slight_smile:

Well, there is a lot of different situations and grammar patterns koto ni can be used in, I think. In this particular case I don’t get the same impression like you did. Two reasons: First one is the phrasing itself. Second one comes from context.

Summary

The whole sentence is:
インターネットで調べものをする場合、ホームページに書いてあることに、うそやまちがいがあることもある。

I think, 「インターネットで調べものをする場合」 is the topic of the sentence. And I think, 「ホームページに書いてあること」is the target for 「うそやまちがいがあること」. And with the ~もある at the end of the sentence they are expressing that this is not the case for all homepages… but the ones with lies and errors also exist.

I think, to point out homepages (from others internet based research resources) using wa particle and ga aru at the end of the whole sentence may have been used.

So, if they’d phrased it like, e.g. 「ホームページに書いてあることには、~~ がある。」or「 ~~ がたくさんある。」or something similar, I’d be totally with you. But the way it is, it feels way more neutral to me. It is meant as warning but not phrased as a general assumption / fact, I think.

I also think, they did not really elaborate on other ways of research / using the internet from a private persons perspective. They did not mention specialized databases / search engines (catalogues) / news groups or different type of protocols. Actually, they completely navigated around these concepts.

They gave an example with the supermarket. But this one is supposed to be protected from access outside of the company. So it doesn’t apply as an example for “internet technologies despite www”, I think.

But that’s just how it reads to me.

Final week :slight_smile: Let’s see, how this journey finishes.

In chapter 5 we’ve seen a lot of different use case where computers are already assisting in everyday life. And I think the vocab term I really liked is 望遠鏡 :telescope: What about you?

Also, for the final week I’d be interested if there is:

  • something new you’ve learned from this book,
  • something that really surprised you, or
  • something you don’t really agree with

I think it’ll be interesting to hear this too! Personally, since I didn’t have the time to read along (I just dropped in to see what was being discussed), I’m curious to see what everyone discovered. That might also help me decide if I want to read this book when I’m finally free again. :slight_smile:

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