なぜ?どうして?Currently reading pages 121 to 124


#2467

Despite their similarity, 〜たり and 〜たら aren’t really related. I mean, there’s probably some etymological parent word somewhere, but in modern times, the meanings aren’t really interchangeable.

Though, to make for smoother English, I’d probably translate this as “when” anyway, as with @Saruko’s translation. A more literal translation would probably something more like “We do things like when it’s dark, make it light with a switch; when it’s cold, make it warm with a switch”, but that really doesn’t flow nicely.


#2468

Page 110

くらし:今も 電気を つかわないで 生活する 人たちが いる?

Life: Even now there are people living without electricity?

くらい ときは、スイッチひとつで 明るくなったり、さむい ときは、スイッチひとつで あたたかくなったり。

When it’s dark, in one switch it’s bright - when it’s cold, in one switch it’s warm.

わたしたちは、電気が かかせない 生活を して います。

We live lives where electricity is indispensable.


#2469

Yep, that’s definitely what happened - thank you for pointing it out!

My bad everyone! :slight_smile:


#2470

Thank you @Belthazar. I actually made a mistake in the conjugation like @trout mentioned. Now it’s all clear to me. Thanks for the input though!


#2471

No problem. I’ve made the same mistake numerous times (and still do!). So I’m always checking verb conjugations. I hope someday I won’t have to look it up.


#2472

Page 110

Okay I’ve read the discussion, and the now room is slowly revolving around me, which happens whenever I try to understand grammar. I’m confused… is this the たり~たり construction for “Expressing multiple actions or states”? In which case, why doesn’t it end with する. Or am I (as usual) getting things all mixed up again?


#2473

Yes.

I thought I understood how it works but after reading @Belthazar’s translation and DOJG, I find that I don’t really understand it that well so I’m hoping to hear from others too.:thinking:


#2474

Thanks @trout. I can’t pretend to understand the grammar discussion going on here, but knowing that that is the construction, that it lists various actions, is enough for me. And I guess する / します is dropped for informality. Job done! Thanks again!


#2475

DOJG goes into a lot more detail compared to Tae Kim and that’s where it gets kinda confusing but Tae Kim is a good place to start at least.

Edit:

And I guess する / します is dropped for informality.

I was trying to figure out why する got omitted because I don’t think it can be dropped like です to make it informal. From reading DOJG, I think it might be because あたたかくなったり is an adjective and not a verb. Not real sure about this though.


#2476

Aye, the grammar dictionary lists a bunch of examples where the する either is or isn’t dropped depending on the main clause. Thing is, this sentence lacks a main clause at all…


#2477

I thought we decided this was a verb?
あたたかく - warmly
なった - became (なる plain past)

I don’t own a DOJG but to me the sentence felt like the usual たり~たり construction in a slightly different/ less formal form.


#2478

Good point! Yes, I think technically speaking it’s an い-adjective converted into an adverb (い→く) which modifies なる。So I think あたたかくなったり as a whole is actually not a verb but an adverb plus a verb.

But あたたかく being an adverb is still not an adjective, so I still don’t know why the する can be omitted after あたたかくなったり.:roll_eyes:


#2479

Yes, I re-read your explanation which you posted last month and it was very good. Actually, DOJG just expands on the concepts presented by Tae Kim by giving more examples and exceptions to the rule. I guess I was having problems with how to incorporate the “do things like ~ and ~ “ into this sentence and also DOJG and Tae Kim mention that it can be translated as “sometimes ~ and sometimes ~”.

Example sentence:

この大学の授業は簡単 だったり難しかったり する。
Class of this college is sometimes easy, sometimes difficult (and other times something else maybe).

But you’re a step ahead of me with this stuff so I’m trying to catch up.


#2480

Page 111

しかし、せかいには、電気を つかわない くらしを している 人たちが います。

However, in the world there are people who live without electricity.

それは、アメリカや カナダに すむ、キリスト教の ひとつを しんじる、「アーミッシュ」と いう 人たちです。

They are called Amish people, and live in America and Canada, believing in Christianity.

I’m not sure what the ひとつ adds.

アーミッシュは、今から 二百年以上も むかし、ヨーロッパから、アメリカに うつってきました。

The Amish moved to America from Europe over 200 years ago.

Caption
アーミッシュの 人たちは 馬車を つかって いどうします。

Amish people moving using horse drawn coach.


#2481

The paragraph in the grammar dictionary on whether or not you can omit する is talking about the main predicate - what comes after the 〜たり in the sentence - there’s always a verb before the 〜たり, because that’s just plain how it works. On closer reading, though, that paragraph is only discussing the rules of what happens when there is something that comes after - in this case, there’s nothing, so I guess the する can safely be dropped if desired. Perhaps it’s the “sometimes ~ and sometimes ~” definition mentioned in the header.


#2482

Yea, I should have read it more carefully and it would be nice to have something explicitly stated saying that it’s OK to drop する if there’s nothing that follows. (But since there’s no rule stated about this, I guess we’ll just make up our own. :fist:)


#2483

Point 2 says “suru usually follows” - “usually”, meaning it’s not required. Though that’s kinda just saying that it’s not not-ok to drop it…


#2484

Is there any real purpose to putting する in there if the sentence can be perfectly understood without it?


#2485

Now you’re thinking like a Japanese person. “The sentence makes perfect sense without it, so let’s just drop it.” :stuck_out_tongue:


#2487

They believe in one kind or variety of Christianity. It just reminds the reader that there are others as well.